How to avoid supervisors with prejudiced views?
There seem to be professors who hold beliefs such as:
- Women students pose a special risk to male supervisors
- Certain ethnic groups are smarter/lazier/harder-working than others
- Older students are worse investments than younger students
- Students with disabilities are less capable/more trouble than nondisabled students
No student should be saddled with negative prejudices from their supervisor. But how can this be prevented?
The big problem is that bigots are often hard to identify early on. They think of themselves as just being honest and realistic. Asking their current students might not help, because if they don't belong to a marginalized group, they will often only notice other characteristics, such as that the supervisor is nice and explains things well. Unfortunately, it's possible to be a very nice guy and also a horrible bigot.
There's also a corrosive secondary bigotry where the bigot insists that they themselves aren't bigots, but other people are, so good opportunities would be wasted on the marginalized student.
How can a prospective student identify these people and avoid them?
ethics advisor
New contributor
|
show 11 more comments
There seem to be professors who hold beliefs such as:
- Women students pose a special risk to male supervisors
- Certain ethnic groups are smarter/lazier/harder-working than others
- Older students are worse investments than younger students
- Students with disabilities are less capable/more trouble than nondisabled students
No student should be saddled with negative prejudices from their supervisor. But how can this be prevented?
The big problem is that bigots are often hard to identify early on. They think of themselves as just being honest and realistic. Asking their current students might not help, because if they don't belong to a marginalized group, they will often only notice other characteristics, such as that the supervisor is nice and explains things well. Unfortunately, it's possible to be a very nice guy and also a horrible bigot.
There's also a corrosive secondary bigotry where the bigot insists that they themselves aren't bigots, but other people are, so good opportunities would be wasted on the marginalized student.
How can a prospective student identify these people and avoid them?
ethics advisor
New contributor
5
It's often possible to obtain a list of the previous students of an advisor. A record of having supervised a diverse group of MS or PhD advisees is probably a good sign.
– Brian Borchers
10 hours ago
5
Hmm, how do supervisors deal with students who are bigots? Or are all students perfect?
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago
6
@SolarMike All students, by definition, don't have a huge amount of power over their supervisor's careers.
– user106152
10 hours ago
6
@SolarMike You must know that you're just encouraging any future trolls who might come along. My premise is that power is a fundamental part of being able to harm someone through bigotry.
– user106152
10 hours ago
3
@user106152 Ahh, and there was me thinking you were the troll....
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
There seem to be professors who hold beliefs such as:
- Women students pose a special risk to male supervisors
- Certain ethnic groups are smarter/lazier/harder-working than others
- Older students are worse investments than younger students
- Students with disabilities are less capable/more trouble than nondisabled students
No student should be saddled with negative prejudices from their supervisor. But how can this be prevented?
The big problem is that bigots are often hard to identify early on. They think of themselves as just being honest and realistic. Asking their current students might not help, because if they don't belong to a marginalized group, they will often only notice other characteristics, such as that the supervisor is nice and explains things well. Unfortunately, it's possible to be a very nice guy and also a horrible bigot.
There's also a corrosive secondary bigotry where the bigot insists that they themselves aren't bigots, but other people are, so good opportunities would be wasted on the marginalized student.
How can a prospective student identify these people and avoid them?
ethics advisor
New contributor
There seem to be professors who hold beliefs such as:
- Women students pose a special risk to male supervisors
- Certain ethnic groups are smarter/lazier/harder-working than others
- Older students are worse investments than younger students
- Students with disabilities are less capable/more trouble than nondisabled students
No student should be saddled with negative prejudices from their supervisor. But how can this be prevented?
The big problem is that bigots are often hard to identify early on. They think of themselves as just being honest and realistic. Asking their current students might not help, because if they don't belong to a marginalized group, they will often only notice other characteristics, such as that the supervisor is nice and explains things well. Unfortunately, it's possible to be a very nice guy and also a horrible bigot.
There's also a corrosive secondary bigotry where the bigot insists that they themselves aren't bigots, but other people are, so good opportunities would be wasted on the marginalized student.
How can a prospective student identify these people and avoid them?
ethics advisor
ethics advisor
New contributor
New contributor
edited 10 hours ago
user106152
New contributor
asked 11 hours ago
user106152user106152
373
373
New contributor
New contributor
5
It's often possible to obtain a list of the previous students of an advisor. A record of having supervised a diverse group of MS or PhD advisees is probably a good sign.
– Brian Borchers
10 hours ago
5
Hmm, how do supervisors deal with students who are bigots? Or are all students perfect?
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago
6
@SolarMike All students, by definition, don't have a huge amount of power over their supervisor's careers.
– user106152
10 hours ago
6
@SolarMike You must know that you're just encouraging any future trolls who might come along. My premise is that power is a fundamental part of being able to harm someone through bigotry.
– user106152
10 hours ago
3
@user106152 Ahh, and there was me thinking you were the troll....
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
5
It's often possible to obtain a list of the previous students of an advisor. A record of having supervised a diverse group of MS or PhD advisees is probably a good sign.
– Brian Borchers
10 hours ago
5
Hmm, how do supervisors deal with students who are bigots? Or are all students perfect?
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago
6
@SolarMike All students, by definition, don't have a huge amount of power over their supervisor's careers.
– user106152
10 hours ago
6
@SolarMike You must know that you're just encouraging any future trolls who might come along. My premise is that power is a fundamental part of being able to harm someone through bigotry.
– user106152
10 hours ago
3
@user106152 Ahh, and there was me thinking you were the troll....
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago
5
5
It's often possible to obtain a list of the previous students of an advisor. A record of having supervised a diverse group of MS or PhD advisees is probably a good sign.
– Brian Borchers
10 hours ago
It's often possible to obtain a list of the previous students of an advisor. A record of having supervised a diverse group of MS or PhD advisees is probably a good sign.
– Brian Borchers
10 hours ago
5
5
Hmm, how do supervisors deal with students who are bigots? Or are all students perfect?
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago
Hmm, how do supervisors deal with students who are bigots? Or are all students perfect?
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago
6
6
@SolarMike All students, by definition, don't have a huge amount of power over their supervisor's careers.
– user106152
10 hours ago
@SolarMike All students, by definition, don't have a huge amount of power over their supervisor's careers.
– user106152
10 hours ago
6
6
@SolarMike You must know that you're just encouraging any future trolls who might come along. My premise is that power is a fundamental part of being able to harm someone through bigotry.
– user106152
10 hours ago
@SolarMike You must know that you're just encouraging any future trolls who might come along. My premise is that power is a fundamental part of being able to harm someone through bigotry.
– user106152
10 hours ago
3
3
@user106152 Ahh, and there was me thinking you were the troll....
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago
@user106152 Ahh, and there was me thinking you were the troll....
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago
|
show 11 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
I will sound snarky with this answer, but have you tried talking to them?
Your question may ask well be asked as "How do I determine the values of another human being before I meet them?" And I would say that is not something you can truly learn and understand until you talk with them.
You may respond with, 'What if they lie?' And that's a very valid point. But I would tell you that all of human social interaction is this very problem, and that you will not gain the wisdom of how to interact with humans without interacting with them!
2
Talk with them and say what? "Are you a bigot?"
– user106152
11 hours ago
3
Maybe not that directly :-). You could ask about their value system. Maybe how they feel about certain social issues in academia. And finally, understand that we're not robots - humans can be very hard to get along with; and I say this as a happily married individual.
– ender.qa
11 hours ago
2
Make a joke at Trumps' expense and gauge how they laugh. If it isn't loud or long enough, call in the red guards.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
2
@user106152 It's not a perfect solution, but you should consider the very real possibility that your question does not have a perfect solution.
– Clay07g
3 hours ago
add a comment |
I recently heard that a good question to ask is “What do you think that others [perhaps other scientists] think about ...” The idea is that most bigots think their bigotry is pretty normal and their beliefs are widely held in secret. So they might tell you that “other people” think X and you can update your beliefs accordingly, unless they follow this up with a convincing argument about why they think most people are wrong. This method is certainly not conclusive, but it can provide a way to start a conversation or a give a bit of extra evidence one way or the other.
Excellent insight! This gets to the heart of the matter.
– user106152
10 hours ago
4
I think this is a good suggestion, but I'd be a bit wary of interpreting it on its own. For example, the first draft of the OP said many professors have bigoted beliefs. By the method you suggest, that might suggest OP is bigoted because they seem to think bigotry is common. I do think this is a good way to start a conversation, though, and from that conversation hopefully something can be learned about their leanings.
– Bryan Krause
10 hours ago
1
You are right @BryanKrause, I will tone this down.
– Dawn
10 hours ago
add a comment |
I think that in all but the most blatant cases it is very hard to do. But there are a few suggestions that might get you started.
First, note that some of the offenders don't leave tracks that can be followed. A person could, for example, be anti-Semitic and not advertise it, but just find subtle ways to disadvantage Jewish students. There is probably much more of that sort of under the radar sort of bigotry than the more open kind in academia, since it is generally sanctioned when found out.
But, students know, or suspect, at least, that they aren't being treated fairly, even if they have no effective way to complain about it or correct it. So, talking to other students in an informal setting is a good way to learn the scuttlebutt. "What do you think about Prof Buffy? Is he just goofy or a real problem?" If you have a specific concern talk to students who might share that concern.
But, there may also be some record of past misbehavior, either official or otherwise. Disciplinary action may be in the public record (or not). Even a web site like RateMyProfessor is a source of (not well vetted) information that might make you think again about an individual.
It is very difficult, of course, to expel bigots from the profession. Often the actions don't rise to the level that permits a tenured person to be fired. While the difficulty of forcing expulsion is intended, it has some bad side effects. The blatant cases, such as Robert Moore and William Shockley are well known and instructive. Brilliant in their fields, castigated for their social views, but never expelled from their professions. These are the easy cases, since they are very public. But most bigotry thrives in darkness.
1
I think it's even worse than that. An awful lot of bigoted behavior is not only perfectly legal, but will even be defended by the professor's colleagues. However, it's still insidiously damaging to the student and that's what I want to prevent.
– user106152
10 hours ago
2
Hmmm. Prevent or avoid? Prevention requires social change. Avoidance is a bit easier.
– Buffy
10 hours ago
Avoidance doesnot solve the issue, it will disseminate more. Of course, it requires social change, however, if there firm regulations that there no racial, ethnic, religious, gender segregation inside academia. Unfortunately, OP mentioned something we all know that bigot is supported by his colleagues and community.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
What is really worse is that there are professors who have bigoted attitude, but dont reveal it and then insidiously can damage and take advantage of you. The best thing you can do asking alumni, it helped and saved me from bigoted and bullied supervisor after having a horrible one.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
2
@Monkia, true enough, but students are badly placed to effect change without damaging their future. Avoidance only keeps you safe. In the long term, work for a better world.
– Buffy
6 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
How can a prospective student identify these people and avoid them?
You are playing a very dangerous game here. Are you going to make your little ideological purity test public? If yes, won't the so-called bigots quickly learn how to game it and intentionally avoid detection (as they apparently are doing now according to the premise of your question)? But I am actually more concerned about the opposite option, that you will apply a secret purity test and brand people as bigots or not according to your own private criteria. This can lead to two sorts of problems:
False negatives. Some people (maybe the more clever or sophisticated among the bigots) will still figure out what your game is and manage to avoid being "caught". You're back to where you are now, except with more of an (incorrect) expectation that you know who's a bigot and who's not. Not so good.
... and then there's the MUCH MUCH worse:
False positives: your private test (that I assume you intend to share with a select group of people who will be the "users" of the test's results) will invariably "flag" some people as bigots who are just... normal people.* Of course, those people will not know that they have been flagged or why, and will have no means to defend themselves. You will damage their careers, probably their reputations, and at the end of the day, what will you achieve? You have denied someone who is likely a perfectly good advisor and mentor to the students who need one, who are exactly the people you are trying to benefit.
* I personally know two well-respected male academics who were recently accused of sexist behavior by women at their universities, leading to both men suffering a great amount of anxiety and fear of career damage before having their name cleared after pointless (and very stupidly handled) investigations by their university administrations. I have heard firsthand descriptions of both incidents (which occurred independently to two people who don't even know each other) and am 99% confident that they were blown completely out of proportion. So if you think these sorts of mistakes don't happen, think again.
To summarize: the idea that you can somehow figure out a way to look deep into people's hearts and decide if they are "good" or "bad" according to some ideological value system is appealing in its simplicity. But we've been there before. For your own and others' sake, my suggestion is: don't.
New contributor
add a comment |
See if you have good rapport with them
I suggest talking -- especially about the field's subject matter -- and seeing how the discussions go. If you come out of the discussion feeling like you can work with the person, it's probably OK. If you don't, you may not know why, but you will suspect that this person isn't a good fit for you. And one discussion isn't enough -- this is a big decisions and it's appropriate to spend some time makeing it. If you can, take a class that the professor teaches and make use of office hours.
(I was in my graduate department for well over a year before I chose my advisor. I understand that in some fields, and some departments, students are expected to choose earlier. So this may not apply.)
For example, with one professor I remember talking to, I always came out of our discussions feeling stupid. It wasn't, as far as I'm aware, any form of prejudice. I think it was just a matter of his style of explaining and my response to it. He would have been a poor fit for me.
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5 Answers
5
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5 Answers
5
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oldest
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I will sound snarky with this answer, but have you tried talking to them?
Your question may ask well be asked as "How do I determine the values of another human being before I meet them?" And I would say that is not something you can truly learn and understand until you talk with them.
You may respond with, 'What if they lie?' And that's a very valid point. But I would tell you that all of human social interaction is this very problem, and that you will not gain the wisdom of how to interact with humans without interacting with them!
2
Talk with them and say what? "Are you a bigot?"
– user106152
11 hours ago
3
Maybe not that directly :-). You could ask about their value system. Maybe how they feel about certain social issues in academia. And finally, understand that we're not robots - humans can be very hard to get along with; and I say this as a happily married individual.
– ender.qa
11 hours ago
2
Make a joke at Trumps' expense and gauge how they laugh. If it isn't loud or long enough, call in the red guards.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
2
@user106152 It's not a perfect solution, but you should consider the very real possibility that your question does not have a perfect solution.
– Clay07g
3 hours ago
add a comment |
I will sound snarky with this answer, but have you tried talking to them?
Your question may ask well be asked as "How do I determine the values of another human being before I meet them?" And I would say that is not something you can truly learn and understand until you talk with them.
You may respond with, 'What if they lie?' And that's a very valid point. But I would tell you that all of human social interaction is this very problem, and that you will not gain the wisdom of how to interact with humans without interacting with them!
2
Talk with them and say what? "Are you a bigot?"
– user106152
11 hours ago
3
Maybe not that directly :-). You could ask about their value system. Maybe how they feel about certain social issues in academia. And finally, understand that we're not robots - humans can be very hard to get along with; and I say this as a happily married individual.
– ender.qa
11 hours ago
2
Make a joke at Trumps' expense and gauge how they laugh. If it isn't loud or long enough, call in the red guards.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
2
@user106152 It's not a perfect solution, but you should consider the very real possibility that your question does not have a perfect solution.
– Clay07g
3 hours ago
add a comment |
I will sound snarky with this answer, but have you tried talking to them?
Your question may ask well be asked as "How do I determine the values of another human being before I meet them?" And I would say that is not something you can truly learn and understand until you talk with them.
You may respond with, 'What if they lie?' And that's a very valid point. But I would tell you that all of human social interaction is this very problem, and that you will not gain the wisdom of how to interact with humans without interacting with them!
I will sound snarky with this answer, but have you tried talking to them?
Your question may ask well be asked as "How do I determine the values of another human being before I meet them?" And I would say that is not something you can truly learn and understand until you talk with them.
You may respond with, 'What if they lie?' And that's a very valid point. But I would tell you that all of human social interaction is this very problem, and that you will not gain the wisdom of how to interact with humans without interacting with them!
answered 11 hours ago
ender.qaender.qa
33118
33118
2
Talk with them and say what? "Are you a bigot?"
– user106152
11 hours ago
3
Maybe not that directly :-). You could ask about their value system. Maybe how they feel about certain social issues in academia. And finally, understand that we're not robots - humans can be very hard to get along with; and I say this as a happily married individual.
– ender.qa
11 hours ago
2
Make a joke at Trumps' expense and gauge how they laugh. If it isn't loud or long enough, call in the red guards.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
2
@user106152 It's not a perfect solution, but you should consider the very real possibility that your question does not have a perfect solution.
– Clay07g
3 hours ago
add a comment |
2
Talk with them and say what? "Are you a bigot?"
– user106152
11 hours ago
3
Maybe not that directly :-). You could ask about their value system. Maybe how they feel about certain social issues in academia. And finally, understand that we're not robots - humans can be very hard to get along with; and I say this as a happily married individual.
– ender.qa
11 hours ago
2
Make a joke at Trumps' expense and gauge how they laugh. If it isn't loud or long enough, call in the red guards.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
2
@user106152 It's not a perfect solution, but you should consider the very real possibility that your question does not have a perfect solution.
– Clay07g
3 hours ago
2
2
Talk with them and say what? "Are you a bigot?"
– user106152
11 hours ago
Talk with them and say what? "Are you a bigot?"
– user106152
11 hours ago
3
3
Maybe not that directly :-). You could ask about their value system. Maybe how they feel about certain social issues in academia. And finally, understand that we're not robots - humans can be very hard to get along with; and I say this as a happily married individual.
– ender.qa
11 hours ago
Maybe not that directly :-). You could ask about their value system. Maybe how they feel about certain social issues in academia. And finally, understand that we're not robots - humans can be very hard to get along with; and I say this as a happily married individual.
– ender.qa
11 hours ago
2
2
Make a joke at Trumps' expense and gauge how they laugh. If it isn't loud or long enough, call in the red guards.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
Make a joke at Trumps' expense and gauge how they laugh. If it isn't loud or long enough, call in the red guards.
– A Simple Algorithm
5 hours ago
2
2
@user106152 It's not a perfect solution, but you should consider the very real possibility that your question does not have a perfect solution.
– Clay07g
3 hours ago
@user106152 It's not a perfect solution, but you should consider the very real possibility that your question does not have a perfect solution.
– Clay07g
3 hours ago
add a comment |
I recently heard that a good question to ask is “What do you think that others [perhaps other scientists] think about ...” The idea is that most bigots think their bigotry is pretty normal and their beliefs are widely held in secret. So they might tell you that “other people” think X and you can update your beliefs accordingly, unless they follow this up with a convincing argument about why they think most people are wrong. This method is certainly not conclusive, but it can provide a way to start a conversation or a give a bit of extra evidence one way or the other.
Excellent insight! This gets to the heart of the matter.
– user106152
10 hours ago
4
I think this is a good suggestion, but I'd be a bit wary of interpreting it on its own. For example, the first draft of the OP said many professors have bigoted beliefs. By the method you suggest, that might suggest OP is bigoted because they seem to think bigotry is common. I do think this is a good way to start a conversation, though, and from that conversation hopefully something can be learned about their leanings.
– Bryan Krause
10 hours ago
1
You are right @BryanKrause, I will tone this down.
– Dawn
10 hours ago
add a comment |
I recently heard that a good question to ask is “What do you think that others [perhaps other scientists] think about ...” The idea is that most bigots think their bigotry is pretty normal and their beliefs are widely held in secret. So they might tell you that “other people” think X and you can update your beliefs accordingly, unless they follow this up with a convincing argument about why they think most people are wrong. This method is certainly not conclusive, but it can provide a way to start a conversation or a give a bit of extra evidence one way or the other.
Excellent insight! This gets to the heart of the matter.
– user106152
10 hours ago
4
I think this is a good suggestion, but I'd be a bit wary of interpreting it on its own. For example, the first draft of the OP said many professors have bigoted beliefs. By the method you suggest, that might suggest OP is bigoted because they seem to think bigotry is common. I do think this is a good way to start a conversation, though, and from that conversation hopefully something can be learned about their leanings.
– Bryan Krause
10 hours ago
1
You are right @BryanKrause, I will tone this down.
– Dawn
10 hours ago
add a comment |
I recently heard that a good question to ask is “What do you think that others [perhaps other scientists] think about ...” The idea is that most bigots think their bigotry is pretty normal and their beliefs are widely held in secret. So they might tell you that “other people” think X and you can update your beliefs accordingly, unless they follow this up with a convincing argument about why they think most people are wrong. This method is certainly not conclusive, but it can provide a way to start a conversation or a give a bit of extra evidence one way or the other.
I recently heard that a good question to ask is “What do you think that others [perhaps other scientists] think about ...” The idea is that most bigots think their bigotry is pretty normal and their beliefs are widely held in secret. So they might tell you that “other people” think X and you can update your beliefs accordingly, unless they follow this up with a convincing argument about why they think most people are wrong. This method is certainly not conclusive, but it can provide a way to start a conversation or a give a bit of extra evidence one way or the other.
edited 10 hours ago
answered 10 hours ago
DawnDawn
8,71812248
8,71812248
Excellent insight! This gets to the heart of the matter.
– user106152
10 hours ago
4
I think this is a good suggestion, but I'd be a bit wary of interpreting it on its own. For example, the first draft of the OP said many professors have bigoted beliefs. By the method you suggest, that might suggest OP is bigoted because they seem to think bigotry is common. I do think this is a good way to start a conversation, though, and from that conversation hopefully something can be learned about their leanings.
– Bryan Krause
10 hours ago
1
You are right @BryanKrause, I will tone this down.
– Dawn
10 hours ago
add a comment |
Excellent insight! This gets to the heart of the matter.
– user106152
10 hours ago
4
I think this is a good suggestion, but I'd be a bit wary of interpreting it on its own. For example, the first draft of the OP said many professors have bigoted beliefs. By the method you suggest, that might suggest OP is bigoted because they seem to think bigotry is common. I do think this is a good way to start a conversation, though, and from that conversation hopefully something can be learned about their leanings.
– Bryan Krause
10 hours ago
1
You are right @BryanKrause, I will tone this down.
– Dawn
10 hours ago
Excellent insight! This gets to the heart of the matter.
– user106152
10 hours ago
Excellent insight! This gets to the heart of the matter.
– user106152
10 hours ago
4
4
I think this is a good suggestion, but I'd be a bit wary of interpreting it on its own. For example, the first draft of the OP said many professors have bigoted beliefs. By the method you suggest, that might suggest OP is bigoted because they seem to think bigotry is common. I do think this is a good way to start a conversation, though, and from that conversation hopefully something can be learned about their leanings.
– Bryan Krause
10 hours ago
I think this is a good suggestion, but I'd be a bit wary of interpreting it on its own. For example, the first draft of the OP said many professors have bigoted beliefs. By the method you suggest, that might suggest OP is bigoted because they seem to think bigotry is common. I do think this is a good way to start a conversation, though, and from that conversation hopefully something can be learned about their leanings.
– Bryan Krause
10 hours ago
1
1
You are right @BryanKrause, I will tone this down.
– Dawn
10 hours ago
You are right @BryanKrause, I will tone this down.
– Dawn
10 hours ago
add a comment |
I think that in all but the most blatant cases it is very hard to do. But there are a few suggestions that might get you started.
First, note that some of the offenders don't leave tracks that can be followed. A person could, for example, be anti-Semitic and not advertise it, but just find subtle ways to disadvantage Jewish students. There is probably much more of that sort of under the radar sort of bigotry than the more open kind in academia, since it is generally sanctioned when found out.
But, students know, or suspect, at least, that they aren't being treated fairly, even if they have no effective way to complain about it or correct it. So, talking to other students in an informal setting is a good way to learn the scuttlebutt. "What do you think about Prof Buffy? Is he just goofy or a real problem?" If you have a specific concern talk to students who might share that concern.
But, there may also be some record of past misbehavior, either official or otherwise. Disciplinary action may be in the public record (or not). Even a web site like RateMyProfessor is a source of (not well vetted) information that might make you think again about an individual.
It is very difficult, of course, to expel bigots from the profession. Often the actions don't rise to the level that permits a tenured person to be fired. While the difficulty of forcing expulsion is intended, it has some bad side effects. The blatant cases, such as Robert Moore and William Shockley are well known and instructive. Brilliant in their fields, castigated for their social views, but never expelled from their professions. These are the easy cases, since they are very public. But most bigotry thrives in darkness.
1
I think it's even worse than that. An awful lot of bigoted behavior is not only perfectly legal, but will even be defended by the professor's colleagues. However, it's still insidiously damaging to the student and that's what I want to prevent.
– user106152
10 hours ago
2
Hmmm. Prevent or avoid? Prevention requires social change. Avoidance is a bit easier.
– Buffy
10 hours ago
Avoidance doesnot solve the issue, it will disseminate more. Of course, it requires social change, however, if there firm regulations that there no racial, ethnic, religious, gender segregation inside academia. Unfortunately, OP mentioned something we all know that bigot is supported by his colleagues and community.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
What is really worse is that there are professors who have bigoted attitude, but dont reveal it and then insidiously can damage and take advantage of you. The best thing you can do asking alumni, it helped and saved me from bigoted and bullied supervisor after having a horrible one.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
2
@Monkia, true enough, but students are badly placed to effect change without damaging their future. Avoidance only keeps you safe. In the long term, work for a better world.
– Buffy
6 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
I think that in all but the most blatant cases it is very hard to do. But there are a few suggestions that might get you started.
First, note that some of the offenders don't leave tracks that can be followed. A person could, for example, be anti-Semitic and not advertise it, but just find subtle ways to disadvantage Jewish students. There is probably much more of that sort of under the radar sort of bigotry than the more open kind in academia, since it is generally sanctioned when found out.
But, students know, or suspect, at least, that they aren't being treated fairly, even if they have no effective way to complain about it or correct it. So, talking to other students in an informal setting is a good way to learn the scuttlebutt. "What do you think about Prof Buffy? Is he just goofy or a real problem?" If you have a specific concern talk to students who might share that concern.
But, there may also be some record of past misbehavior, either official or otherwise. Disciplinary action may be in the public record (or not). Even a web site like RateMyProfessor is a source of (not well vetted) information that might make you think again about an individual.
It is very difficult, of course, to expel bigots from the profession. Often the actions don't rise to the level that permits a tenured person to be fired. While the difficulty of forcing expulsion is intended, it has some bad side effects. The blatant cases, such as Robert Moore and William Shockley are well known and instructive. Brilliant in their fields, castigated for their social views, but never expelled from their professions. These are the easy cases, since they are very public. But most bigotry thrives in darkness.
1
I think it's even worse than that. An awful lot of bigoted behavior is not only perfectly legal, but will even be defended by the professor's colleagues. However, it's still insidiously damaging to the student and that's what I want to prevent.
– user106152
10 hours ago
2
Hmmm. Prevent or avoid? Prevention requires social change. Avoidance is a bit easier.
– Buffy
10 hours ago
Avoidance doesnot solve the issue, it will disseminate more. Of course, it requires social change, however, if there firm regulations that there no racial, ethnic, religious, gender segregation inside academia. Unfortunately, OP mentioned something we all know that bigot is supported by his colleagues and community.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
What is really worse is that there are professors who have bigoted attitude, but dont reveal it and then insidiously can damage and take advantage of you. The best thing you can do asking alumni, it helped and saved me from bigoted and bullied supervisor after having a horrible one.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
2
@Monkia, true enough, but students are badly placed to effect change without damaging their future. Avoidance only keeps you safe. In the long term, work for a better world.
– Buffy
6 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
I think that in all but the most blatant cases it is very hard to do. But there are a few suggestions that might get you started.
First, note that some of the offenders don't leave tracks that can be followed. A person could, for example, be anti-Semitic and not advertise it, but just find subtle ways to disadvantage Jewish students. There is probably much more of that sort of under the radar sort of bigotry than the more open kind in academia, since it is generally sanctioned when found out.
But, students know, or suspect, at least, that they aren't being treated fairly, even if they have no effective way to complain about it or correct it. So, talking to other students in an informal setting is a good way to learn the scuttlebutt. "What do you think about Prof Buffy? Is he just goofy or a real problem?" If you have a specific concern talk to students who might share that concern.
But, there may also be some record of past misbehavior, either official or otherwise. Disciplinary action may be in the public record (or not). Even a web site like RateMyProfessor is a source of (not well vetted) information that might make you think again about an individual.
It is very difficult, of course, to expel bigots from the profession. Often the actions don't rise to the level that permits a tenured person to be fired. While the difficulty of forcing expulsion is intended, it has some bad side effects. The blatant cases, such as Robert Moore and William Shockley are well known and instructive. Brilliant in their fields, castigated for their social views, but never expelled from their professions. These are the easy cases, since they are very public. But most bigotry thrives in darkness.
I think that in all but the most blatant cases it is very hard to do. But there are a few suggestions that might get you started.
First, note that some of the offenders don't leave tracks that can be followed. A person could, for example, be anti-Semitic and not advertise it, but just find subtle ways to disadvantage Jewish students. There is probably much more of that sort of under the radar sort of bigotry than the more open kind in academia, since it is generally sanctioned when found out.
But, students know, or suspect, at least, that they aren't being treated fairly, even if they have no effective way to complain about it or correct it. So, talking to other students in an informal setting is a good way to learn the scuttlebutt. "What do you think about Prof Buffy? Is he just goofy or a real problem?" If you have a specific concern talk to students who might share that concern.
But, there may also be some record of past misbehavior, either official or otherwise. Disciplinary action may be in the public record (or not). Even a web site like RateMyProfessor is a source of (not well vetted) information that might make you think again about an individual.
It is very difficult, of course, to expel bigots from the profession. Often the actions don't rise to the level that permits a tenured person to be fired. While the difficulty of forcing expulsion is intended, it has some bad side effects. The blatant cases, such as Robert Moore and William Shockley are well known and instructive. Brilliant in their fields, castigated for their social views, but never expelled from their professions. These are the easy cases, since they are very public. But most bigotry thrives in darkness.
edited 10 hours ago
answered 10 hours ago
BuffyBuffy
55.1k16175268
55.1k16175268
1
I think it's even worse than that. An awful lot of bigoted behavior is not only perfectly legal, but will even be defended by the professor's colleagues. However, it's still insidiously damaging to the student and that's what I want to prevent.
– user106152
10 hours ago
2
Hmmm. Prevent or avoid? Prevention requires social change. Avoidance is a bit easier.
– Buffy
10 hours ago
Avoidance doesnot solve the issue, it will disseminate more. Of course, it requires social change, however, if there firm regulations that there no racial, ethnic, religious, gender segregation inside academia. Unfortunately, OP mentioned something we all know that bigot is supported by his colleagues and community.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
What is really worse is that there are professors who have bigoted attitude, but dont reveal it and then insidiously can damage and take advantage of you. The best thing you can do asking alumni, it helped and saved me from bigoted and bullied supervisor after having a horrible one.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
2
@Monkia, true enough, but students are badly placed to effect change without damaging their future. Avoidance only keeps you safe. In the long term, work for a better world.
– Buffy
6 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
1
I think it's even worse than that. An awful lot of bigoted behavior is not only perfectly legal, but will even be defended by the professor's colleagues. However, it's still insidiously damaging to the student and that's what I want to prevent.
– user106152
10 hours ago
2
Hmmm. Prevent or avoid? Prevention requires social change. Avoidance is a bit easier.
– Buffy
10 hours ago
Avoidance doesnot solve the issue, it will disseminate more. Of course, it requires social change, however, if there firm regulations that there no racial, ethnic, religious, gender segregation inside academia. Unfortunately, OP mentioned something we all know that bigot is supported by his colleagues and community.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
What is really worse is that there are professors who have bigoted attitude, but dont reveal it and then insidiously can damage and take advantage of you. The best thing you can do asking alumni, it helped and saved me from bigoted and bullied supervisor after having a horrible one.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
2
@Monkia, true enough, but students are badly placed to effect change without damaging their future. Avoidance only keeps you safe. In the long term, work for a better world.
– Buffy
6 hours ago
1
1
I think it's even worse than that. An awful lot of bigoted behavior is not only perfectly legal, but will even be defended by the professor's colleagues. However, it's still insidiously damaging to the student and that's what I want to prevent.
– user106152
10 hours ago
I think it's even worse than that. An awful lot of bigoted behavior is not only perfectly legal, but will even be defended by the professor's colleagues. However, it's still insidiously damaging to the student and that's what I want to prevent.
– user106152
10 hours ago
2
2
Hmmm. Prevent or avoid? Prevention requires social change. Avoidance is a bit easier.
– Buffy
10 hours ago
Hmmm. Prevent or avoid? Prevention requires social change. Avoidance is a bit easier.
– Buffy
10 hours ago
Avoidance doesnot solve the issue, it will disseminate more. Of course, it requires social change, however, if there firm regulations that there no racial, ethnic, religious, gender segregation inside academia. Unfortunately, OP mentioned something we all know that bigot is supported by his colleagues and community.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
Avoidance doesnot solve the issue, it will disseminate more. Of course, it requires social change, however, if there firm regulations that there no racial, ethnic, religious, gender segregation inside academia. Unfortunately, OP mentioned something we all know that bigot is supported by his colleagues and community.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
What is really worse is that there are professors who have bigoted attitude, but dont reveal it and then insidiously can damage and take advantage of you. The best thing you can do asking alumni, it helped and saved me from bigoted and bullied supervisor after having a horrible one.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
What is really worse is that there are professors who have bigoted attitude, but dont reveal it and then insidiously can damage and take advantage of you. The best thing you can do asking alumni, it helped and saved me from bigoted and bullied supervisor after having a horrible one.
– Monkia
6 hours ago
2
2
@Monkia, true enough, but students are badly placed to effect change without damaging their future. Avoidance only keeps you safe. In the long term, work for a better world.
– Buffy
6 hours ago
@Monkia, true enough, but students are badly placed to effect change without damaging their future. Avoidance only keeps you safe. In the long term, work for a better world.
– Buffy
6 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
How can a prospective student identify these people and avoid them?
You are playing a very dangerous game here. Are you going to make your little ideological purity test public? If yes, won't the so-called bigots quickly learn how to game it and intentionally avoid detection (as they apparently are doing now according to the premise of your question)? But I am actually more concerned about the opposite option, that you will apply a secret purity test and brand people as bigots or not according to your own private criteria. This can lead to two sorts of problems:
False negatives. Some people (maybe the more clever or sophisticated among the bigots) will still figure out what your game is and manage to avoid being "caught". You're back to where you are now, except with more of an (incorrect) expectation that you know who's a bigot and who's not. Not so good.
... and then there's the MUCH MUCH worse:
False positives: your private test (that I assume you intend to share with a select group of people who will be the "users" of the test's results) will invariably "flag" some people as bigots who are just... normal people.* Of course, those people will not know that they have been flagged or why, and will have no means to defend themselves. You will damage their careers, probably their reputations, and at the end of the day, what will you achieve? You have denied someone who is likely a perfectly good advisor and mentor to the students who need one, who are exactly the people you are trying to benefit.
* I personally know two well-respected male academics who were recently accused of sexist behavior by women at their universities, leading to both men suffering a great amount of anxiety and fear of career damage before having their name cleared after pointless (and very stupidly handled) investigations by their university administrations. I have heard firsthand descriptions of both incidents (which occurred independently to two people who don't even know each other) and am 99% confident that they were blown completely out of proportion. So if you think these sorts of mistakes don't happen, think again.
To summarize: the idea that you can somehow figure out a way to look deep into people's hearts and decide if they are "good" or "bad" according to some ideological value system is appealing in its simplicity. But we've been there before. For your own and others' sake, my suggestion is: don't.
New contributor
add a comment |
How can a prospective student identify these people and avoid them?
You are playing a very dangerous game here. Are you going to make your little ideological purity test public? If yes, won't the so-called bigots quickly learn how to game it and intentionally avoid detection (as they apparently are doing now according to the premise of your question)? But I am actually more concerned about the opposite option, that you will apply a secret purity test and brand people as bigots or not according to your own private criteria. This can lead to two sorts of problems:
False negatives. Some people (maybe the more clever or sophisticated among the bigots) will still figure out what your game is and manage to avoid being "caught". You're back to where you are now, except with more of an (incorrect) expectation that you know who's a bigot and who's not. Not so good.
... and then there's the MUCH MUCH worse:
False positives: your private test (that I assume you intend to share with a select group of people who will be the "users" of the test's results) will invariably "flag" some people as bigots who are just... normal people.* Of course, those people will not know that they have been flagged or why, and will have no means to defend themselves. You will damage their careers, probably their reputations, and at the end of the day, what will you achieve? You have denied someone who is likely a perfectly good advisor and mentor to the students who need one, who are exactly the people you are trying to benefit.
* I personally know two well-respected male academics who were recently accused of sexist behavior by women at their universities, leading to both men suffering a great amount of anxiety and fear of career damage before having their name cleared after pointless (and very stupidly handled) investigations by their university administrations. I have heard firsthand descriptions of both incidents (which occurred independently to two people who don't even know each other) and am 99% confident that they were blown completely out of proportion. So if you think these sorts of mistakes don't happen, think again.
To summarize: the idea that you can somehow figure out a way to look deep into people's hearts and decide if they are "good" or "bad" according to some ideological value system is appealing in its simplicity. But we've been there before. For your own and others' sake, my suggestion is: don't.
New contributor
add a comment |
How can a prospective student identify these people and avoid them?
You are playing a very dangerous game here. Are you going to make your little ideological purity test public? If yes, won't the so-called bigots quickly learn how to game it and intentionally avoid detection (as they apparently are doing now according to the premise of your question)? But I am actually more concerned about the opposite option, that you will apply a secret purity test and brand people as bigots or not according to your own private criteria. This can lead to two sorts of problems:
False negatives. Some people (maybe the more clever or sophisticated among the bigots) will still figure out what your game is and manage to avoid being "caught". You're back to where you are now, except with more of an (incorrect) expectation that you know who's a bigot and who's not. Not so good.
... and then there's the MUCH MUCH worse:
False positives: your private test (that I assume you intend to share with a select group of people who will be the "users" of the test's results) will invariably "flag" some people as bigots who are just... normal people.* Of course, those people will not know that they have been flagged or why, and will have no means to defend themselves. You will damage their careers, probably their reputations, and at the end of the day, what will you achieve? You have denied someone who is likely a perfectly good advisor and mentor to the students who need one, who are exactly the people you are trying to benefit.
* I personally know two well-respected male academics who were recently accused of sexist behavior by women at their universities, leading to both men suffering a great amount of anxiety and fear of career damage before having their name cleared after pointless (and very stupidly handled) investigations by their university administrations. I have heard firsthand descriptions of both incidents (which occurred independently to two people who don't even know each other) and am 99% confident that they were blown completely out of proportion. So if you think these sorts of mistakes don't happen, think again.
To summarize: the idea that you can somehow figure out a way to look deep into people's hearts and decide if they are "good" or "bad" according to some ideological value system is appealing in its simplicity. But we've been there before. For your own and others' sake, my suggestion is: don't.
New contributor
How can a prospective student identify these people and avoid them?
You are playing a very dangerous game here. Are you going to make your little ideological purity test public? If yes, won't the so-called bigots quickly learn how to game it and intentionally avoid detection (as they apparently are doing now according to the premise of your question)? But I am actually more concerned about the opposite option, that you will apply a secret purity test and brand people as bigots or not according to your own private criteria. This can lead to two sorts of problems:
False negatives. Some people (maybe the more clever or sophisticated among the bigots) will still figure out what your game is and manage to avoid being "caught". You're back to where you are now, except with more of an (incorrect) expectation that you know who's a bigot and who's not. Not so good.
... and then there's the MUCH MUCH worse:
False positives: your private test (that I assume you intend to share with a select group of people who will be the "users" of the test's results) will invariably "flag" some people as bigots who are just... normal people.* Of course, those people will not know that they have been flagged or why, and will have no means to defend themselves. You will damage their careers, probably their reputations, and at the end of the day, what will you achieve? You have denied someone who is likely a perfectly good advisor and mentor to the students who need one, who are exactly the people you are trying to benefit.
* I personally know two well-respected male academics who were recently accused of sexist behavior by women at their universities, leading to both men suffering a great amount of anxiety and fear of career damage before having their name cleared after pointless (and very stupidly handled) investigations by their university administrations. I have heard firsthand descriptions of both incidents (which occurred independently to two people who don't even know each other) and am 99% confident that they were blown completely out of proportion. So if you think these sorts of mistakes don't happen, think again.
To summarize: the idea that you can somehow figure out a way to look deep into people's hearts and decide if they are "good" or "bad" according to some ideological value system is appealing in its simplicity. But we've been there before. For your own and others' sake, my suggestion is: don't.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 2 hours ago
LowDimensionalProjectionLowDimensionalProjection
391
391
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
See if you have good rapport with them
I suggest talking -- especially about the field's subject matter -- and seeing how the discussions go. If you come out of the discussion feeling like you can work with the person, it's probably OK. If you don't, you may not know why, but you will suspect that this person isn't a good fit for you. And one discussion isn't enough -- this is a big decisions and it's appropriate to spend some time makeing it. If you can, take a class that the professor teaches and make use of office hours.
(I was in my graduate department for well over a year before I chose my advisor. I understand that in some fields, and some departments, students are expected to choose earlier. So this may not apply.)
For example, with one professor I remember talking to, I always came out of our discussions feeling stupid. It wasn't, as far as I'm aware, any form of prejudice. I think it was just a matter of his style of explaining and my response to it. He would have been a poor fit for me.
New contributor
add a comment |
See if you have good rapport with them
I suggest talking -- especially about the field's subject matter -- and seeing how the discussions go. If you come out of the discussion feeling like you can work with the person, it's probably OK. If you don't, you may not know why, but you will suspect that this person isn't a good fit for you. And one discussion isn't enough -- this is a big decisions and it's appropriate to spend some time makeing it. If you can, take a class that the professor teaches and make use of office hours.
(I was in my graduate department for well over a year before I chose my advisor. I understand that in some fields, and some departments, students are expected to choose earlier. So this may not apply.)
For example, with one professor I remember talking to, I always came out of our discussions feeling stupid. It wasn't, as far as I'm aware, any form of prejudice. I think it was just a matter of his style of explaining and my response to it. He would have been a poor fit for me.
New contributor
add a comment |
See if you have good rapport with them
I suggest talking -- especially about the field's subject matter -- and seeing how the discussions go. If you come out of the discussion feeling like you can work with the person, it's probably OK. If you don't, you may not know why, but you will suspect that this person isn't a good fit for you. And one discussion isn't enough -- this is a big decisions and it's appropriate to spend some time makeing it. If you can, take a class that the professor teaches and make use of office hours.
(I was in my graduate department for well over a year before I chose my advisor. I understand that in some fields, and some departments, students are expected to choose earlier. So this may not apply.)
For example, with one professor I remember talking to, I always came out of our discussions feeling stupid. It wasn't, as far as I'm aware, any form of prejudice. I think it was just a matter of his style of explaining and my response to it. He would have been a poor fit for me.
New contributor
See if you have good rapport with them
I suggest talking -- especially about the field's subject matter -- and seeing how the discussions go. If you come out of the discussion feeling like you can work with the person, it's probably OK. If you don't, you may not know why, but you will suspect that this person isn't a good fit for you. And one discussion isn't enough -- this is a big decisions and it's appropriate to spend some time makeing it. If you can, take a class that the professor teaches and make use of office hours.
(I was in my graduate department for well over a year before I chose my advisor. I understand that in some fields, and some departments, students are expected to choose earlier. So this may not apply.)
For example, with one professor I remember talking to, I always came out of our discussions feeling stupid. It wasn't, as far as I'm aware, any form of prejudice. I think it was just a matter of his style of explaining and my response to it. He would have been a poor fit for me.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 39 mins ago
DanDan
111
111
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
user106152 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user106152 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user106152 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user106152 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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5
It's often possible to obtain a list of the previous students of an advisor. A record of having supervised a diverse group of MS or PhD advisees is probably a good sign.
– Brian Borchers
10 hours ago
5
Hmm, how do supervisors deal with students who are bigots? Or are all students perfect?
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago
6
@SolarMike All students, by definition, don't have a huge amount of power over their supervisor's careers.
– user106152
10 hours ago
6
@SolarMike You must know that you're just encouraging any future trolls who might come along. My premise is that power is a fundamental part of being able to harm someone through bigotry.
– user106152
10 hours ago
3
@user106152 Ahh, and there was me thinking you were the troll....
– Solar Mike
10 hours ago