How to sabotage a blacksmith production?












20














The city's main weapon and armor supplier has lost his contract arming the city's guard because the quality of the last batch of its products is awful.



The swords break at the first clash, the armor doesn't hold together under a couple of blows. How did this happen? The materials are of the highest quality, the blacksmiths have done this work for years and they didn't notice anything wrong during the process of making the weapons and armor, obviously this shouldn't be happening.



What did the saboteurs do to the materials, tools or finished products that only after delivery they were found useless?




  • It'd be ideal if both weapons and armor are sabotaged but it could be just one.


  • There is magic in this world, but I would prefer a non magical solution if possible.


  • It shouldn't look like a sabotage at all.


  • The period is set in Late Middle Ages (1200-1500)











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  • 9




    Sabotaging the process might be possible, but it would take a whomping good bribe to sabotage the blacksmith himself. He'd know about anything wrong with the process and would certainly know that he was producing substandard equipment. I suspect this question is more about the blacksmith than it is the process of subverting the process of blacksmithing.
    – JBH
    22 hours ago






  • 2




    In Late Medieval Europe creating weapons and armour was already a specialised task, the Guild of Armourers in London was founded in 1322 the Guild of Cutlers granted a charter in 1416. It was also before the days of centralised manufacturing there would be several craftsmen performing those task in a city rather than one, a smaller town one would,be more likely.
    – Sarriesfan
    22 hours ago












  • Interesting question, but still VTC since it is not worldbuilding but a mix of story, history and real-world metallurgy.
    – Guran
    20 hours ago






  • 13




    "The swords break at the first clash, ... The materials are of the highest quality". Without magic this doesn't compute. The blacksmith will test the blade thoroughly, especially after one or two have been found to fail. The soldiers will test their swords as soon as they receive them - they won't wait for battle before even trying the weapon.
    – chasly from UK
    17 hours ago








  • 1




    Not enough time to post a full answer, but adding gallium to a batch of metal makes it annoyingly magnetic, brittle, and hard to separate out the gallium. I am sure there is probably something else more plentiful that would produce the same result but I can't think of it right now.
    – Keeta
    11 hours ago
















20














The city's main weapon and armor supplier has lost his contract arming the city's guard because the quality of the last batch of its products is awful.



The swords break at the first clash, the armor doesn't hold together under a couple of blows. How did this happen? The materials are of the highest quality, the blacksmiths have done this work for years and they didn't notice anything wrong during the process of making the weapons and armor, obviously this shouldn't be happening.



What did the saboteurs do to the materials, tools or finished products that only after delivery they were found useless?




  • It'd be ideal if both weapons and armor are sabotaged but it could be just one.


  • There is magic in this world, but I would prefer a non magical solution if possible.


  • It shouldn't look like a sabotage at all.


  • The period is set in Late Middle Ages (1200-1500)











share|improve this question









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  • 9




    Sabotaging the process might be possible, but it would take a whomping good bribe to sabotage the blacksmith himself. He'd know about anything wrong with the process and would certainly know that he was producing substandard equipment. I suspect this question is more about the blacksmith than it is the process of subverting the process of blacksmithing.
    – JBH
    22 hours ago






  • 2




    In Late Medieval Europe creating weapons and armour was already a specialised task, the Guild of Armourers in London was founded in 1322 the Guild of Cutlers granted a charter in 1416. It was also before the days of centralised manufacturing there would be several craftsmen performing those task in a city rather than one, a smaller town one would,be more likely.
    – Sarriesfan
    22 hours ago












  • Interesting question, but still VTC since it is not worldbuilding but a mix of story, history and real-world metallurgy.
    – Guran
    20 hours ago






  • 13




    "The swords break at the first clash, ... The materials are of the highest quality". Without magic this doesn't compute. The blacksmith will test the blade thoroughly, especially after one or two have been found to fail. The soldiers will test their swords as soon as they receive them - they won't wait for battle before even trying the weapon.
    – chasly from UK
    17 hours ago








  • 1




    Not enough time to post a full answer, but adding gallium to a batch of metal makes it annoyingly magnetic, brittle, and hard to separate out the gallium. I am sure there is probably something else more plentiful that would produce the same result but I can't think of it right now.
    – Keeta
    11 hours ago














20












20








20


2





The city's main weapon and armor supplier has lost his contract arming the city's guard because the quality of the last batch of its products is awful.



The swords break at the first clash, the armor doesn't hold together under a couple of blows. How did this happen? The materials are of the highest quality, the blacksmiths have done this work for years and they didn't notice anything wrong during the process of making the weapons and armor, obviously this shouldn't be happening.



What did the saboteurs do to the materials, tools or finished products that only after delivery they were found useless?




  • It'd be ideal if both weapons and armor are sabotaged but it could be just one.


  • There is magic in this world, but I would prefer a non magical solution if possible.


  • It shouldn't look like a sabotage at all.


  • The period is set in Late Middle Ages (1200-1500)











share|improve this question









New contributor




NewGM is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











The city's main weapon and armor supplier has lost his contract arming the city's guard because the quality of the last batch of its products is awful.



The swords break at the first clash, the armor doesn't hold together under a couple of blows. How did this happen? The materials are of the highest quality, the blacksmiths have done this work for years and they didn't notice anything wrong during the process of making the weapons and armor, obviously this shouldn't be happening.



What did the saboteurs do to the materials, tools or finished products that only after delivery they were found useless?




  • It'd be ideal if both weapons and armor are sabotaged but it could be just one.


  • There is magic in this world, but I would prefer a non magical solution if possible.


  • It shouldn't look like a sabotage at all.


  • The period is set in Late Middle Ages (1200-1500)








materials metals middle-ages






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edited 9 hours ago









Fermi paradox

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279312






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asked 22 hours ago









NewGMNewGM

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  • 9




    Sabotaging the process might be possible, but it would take a whomping good bribe to sabotage the blacksmith himself. He'd know about anything wrong with the process and would certainly know that he was producing substandard equipment. I suspect this question is more about the blacksmith than it is the process of subverting the process of blacksmithing.
    – JBH
    22 hours ago






  • 2




    In Late Medieval Europe creating weapons and armour was already a specialised task, the Guild of Armourers in London was founded in 1322 the Guild of Cutlers granted a charter in 1416. It was also before the days of centralised manufacturing there would be several craftsmen performing those task in a city rather than one, a smaller town one would,be more likely.
    – Sarriesfan
    22 hours ago












  • Interesting question, but still VTC since it is not worldbuilding but a mix of story, history and real-world metallurgy.
    – Guran
    20 hours ago






  • 13




    "The swords break at the first clash, ... The materials are of the highest quality". Without magic this doesn't compute. The blacksmith will test the blade thoroughly, especially after one or two have been found to fail. The soldiers will test their swords as soon as they receive them - they won't wait for battle before even trying the weapon.
    – chasly from UK
    17 hours ago








  • 1




    Not enough time to post a full answer, but adding gallium to a batch of metal makes it annoyingly magnetic, brittle, and hard to separate out the gallium. I am sure there is probably something else more plentiful that would produce the same result but I can't think of it right now.
    – Keeta
    11 hours ago














  • 9




    Sabotaging the process might be possible, but it would take a whomping good bribe to sabotage the blacksmith himself. He'd know about anything wrong with the process and would certainly know that he was producing substandard equipment. I suspect this question is more about the blacksmith than it is the process of subverting the process of blacksmithing.
    – JBH
    22 hours ago






  • 2




    In Late Medieval Europe creating weapons and armour was already a specialised task, the Guild of Armourers in London was founded in 1322 the Guild of Cutlers granted a charter in 1416. It was also before the days of centralised manufacturing there would be several craftsmen performing those task in a city rather than one, a smaller town one would,be more likely.
    – Sarriesfan
    22 hours ago












  • Interesting question, but still VTC since it is not worldbuilding but a mix of story, history and real-world metallurgy.
    – Guran
    20 hours ago






  • 13




    "The swords break at the first clash, ... The materials are of the highest quality". Without magic this doesn't compute. The blacksmith will test the blade thoroughly, especially after one or two have been found to fail. The soldiers will test their swords as soon as they receive them - they won't wait for battle before even trying the weapon.
    – chasly from UK
    17 hours ago








  • 1




    Not enough time to post a full answer, but adding gallium to a batch of metal makes it annoyingly magnetic, brittle, and hard to separate out the gallium. I am sure there is probably something else more plentiful that would produce the same result but I can't think of it right now.
    – Keeta
    11 hours ago








9




9




Sabotaging the process might be possible, but it would take a whomping good bribe to sabotage the blacksmith himself. He'd know about anything wrong with the process and would certainly know that he was producing substandard equipment. I suspect this question is more about the blacksmith than it is the process of subverting the process of blacksmithing.
– JBH
22 hours ago




Sabotaging the process might be possible, but it would take a whomping good bribe to sabotage the blacksmith himself. He'd know about anything wrong with the process and would certainly know that he was producing substandard equipment. I suspect this question is more about the blacksmith than it is the process of subverting the process of blacksmithing.
– JBH
22 hours ago




2




2




In Late Medieval Europe creating weapons and armour was already a specialised task, the Guild of Armourers in London was founded in 1322 the Guild of Cutlers granted a charter in 1416. It was also before the days of centralised manufacturing there would be several craftsmen performing those task in a city rather than one, a smaller town one would,be more likely.
– Sarriesfan
22 hours ago






In Late Medieval Europe creating weapons and armour was already a specialised task, the Guild of Armourers in London was founded in 1322 the Guild of Cutlers granted a charter in 1416. It was also before the days of centralised manufacturing there would be several craftsmen performing those task in a city rather than one, a smaller town one would,be more likely.
– Sarriesfan
22 hours ago














Interesting question, but still VTC since it is not worldbuilding but a mix of story, history and real-world metallurgy.
– Guran
20 hours ago




Interesting question, but still VTC since it is not worldbuilding but a mix of story, history and real-world metallurgy.
– Guran
20 hours ago




13




13




"The swords break at the first clash, ... The materials are of the highest quality". Without magic this doesn't compute. The blacksmith will test the blade thoroughly, especially after one or two have been found to fail. The soldiers will test their swords as soon as they receive them - they won't wait for battle before even trying the weapon.
– chasly from UK
17 hours ago






"The swords break at the first clash, ... The materials are of the highest quality". Without magic this doesn't compute. The blacksmith will test the blade thoroughly, especially after one or two have been found to fail. The soldiers will test their swords as soon as they receive them - they won't wait for battle before even trying the weapon.
– chasly from UK
17 hours ago






1




1




Not enough time to post a full answer, but adding gallium to a batch of metal makes it annoyingly magnetic, brittle, and hard to separate out the gallium. I am sure there is probably something else more plentiful that would produce the same result but I can't think of it right now.
– Keeta
11 hours ago




Not enough time to post a full answer, but adding gallium to a batch of metal makes it annoyingly magnetic, brittle, and hard to separate out the gallium. I am sure there is probably something else more plentiful that would produce the same result but I can't think of it right now.
– Keeta
11 hours ago










15 Answers
15






active

oldest

votes


















41














Replicas



The blacksmith did his job to perfection - the equipment just never got to the army.



The saboeurs act as middlemen in the delivery system. The carriages holding the gear are intercepted midway and swapped with shitty quality replicas that look exactly like the blacksmith's equipment.



This could work in at least two ways:




  1. The saboteurs have a few inside men. At least one of them should be one of the armour/weapon designers that would let the sabouteurs know, in advance, what the gear will look like. The others should be the members of the delivery crew;

  2. As pointed by Mason Wheeler, they don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver, they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.


This would also be profitable to the saboteurs, since they could still sell the high quality gear to someone else.






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  • 7




    +1 for giving the only answer I've seen so far that realistically works around the "the blacksmith would notice" problem without requiring the blacksmith to be a saboteur, in spite of what you wrote. They don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver; they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.
    – Mason Wheeler
    10 hours ago








  • 4




    'And the fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your swords, and the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine...'
    – void_ptr
    10 hours ago



















41














Heat up the products above the eutectoid temperature to form austenite and then rapidly quench it to induce the formation of martensite. This will induce the formation of hardened steel which is more brittle.




Martensite is formed in carbon steels by the rapid cooling (quenching) of the austenite form of iron at such a high rate that carbon atoms do not have time to diffuse out of the crystal structure in large enough quantities to form cementite. [...] Too much martensite leaves steel brittle; too little leaves it soft.




A skilled artisan will use this process to make the outer of the product hard, but he would do it to the right point, so that the core is left resilient.



The saboteur would just move past this optimum and ruin the final result. A bit like baking a pizza 5 minutes more: from crust to char with the blink of an eye.






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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – L.Dutch
    7 hours ago






  • 3




    While this form of sabotage would certainly render the metal brittle and useless, it would also introduce a ton of visual artifacts that anyone from the blacksmith to the swordsman would readily notice, leading to the sabotage getting discovered quickly. The only way to rectify this would be to somehow intercept the swords after they leave the blacksmith's shop and do the ruining and repolishing before delivering them, but then it would be easier to just swap them entirely with swords specifically made to look pretty but break on first usage. As such, Magus' answer is far more plausible.
    – Abion47
    6 hours ago






  • 4




    Medieval arms and weapons would have been proofed before being sent to the front lines. Even if production was being rushed due to wartime demands, any vaguely awake quartermaster would have taken a couple of swords and smacked them against some of the armor, simply to check that the blacksmiths aren't cheating the army.
    – Tacroy
    6 hours ago



















8














@JBH points out the difficulty. If you provide poor materials the smiths will detect problems because the metal will not act right. Quality control is integral to their line of work. Also, the smiths are not really bribable - it is their livelihood and if they get a reputation for turning out shoddy products that is the end of their work. A bribe would have to be enough to retire on.



Sabotaging the materials after they are made is really hard too. They are steel and steel is durable. Damage enough to make them fail on first use will be readily evident, certainly to the smiths but probably to anyone familiar with such items.



I can think of only one option.



Changeling.



Fairies take human children and leave in their place supernatural creatures who pretend to be children. The changeling children are sickly or weird or spooky. This has to be the solution for the armor and unfortunately, it probably requires magic. Magical entities (though probably not fairies, given they hate iron) steal the finished high-quality arms and armor and substitute pottery items, with a glamour cast upon them to make them look and sound like the originals. Of course, the changeling armaments fail immediately on use.



I like the idea that when someone figures out how to dispel the glamour, the crude pottery items are seen to have scrawled on them dirty words and obscene drawings labeled with the names of various knights.






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  • 9




    A more mundane version of this idea is to hijack the equipment during shipment and replace it. It's a two-fer! You get the good stuff and your enemy gets bupkis.
    – JBH
    20 hours ago










  • Intercepting during shipping could potentially heat the equipment and infuse some weakening chemical (or magic?) into it before cooling and letting it on its way to delivery.
    – Ralph Bolton
    17 hours ago






  • 9




    A bribe would have to be enough to retire on and to flee. The penalty for military sabotage in a mediaeval society isn't likely to just be loss of livelihood
    – Chris H
    17 hours ago






  • 5




    @ChrisH Sabotaging military equipment is going to put you in serious trouble even in modern democratic societies. We're talking about treason, here.
    – Rekesoft
    15 hours ago










  • If magic enters the scene (as allowed by OP), the possibilities are many. Why would this be the only one? Why not a magic dwarf casting a spell to turn the metal to bubble gum once it is used in a real fight? Or anything else? Are you talking about a particular universe? Also, how do you know that fairies don't like iron in OP's universe? This answer really doesn't make any sense to me but it is upvoted and Wilk is a reputable member of this community, so am I missing something?
    – Legisey
    11 hours ago



















7














Adding too much phosphorus to the iron makes it "cold short", i.e. brittle at low temperatures.




The effects of cold shortness are magnified by temperature. Thus, a piece of iron that is perfectly serviceable in summer, might become extremely brittle in winter. There is some evidence that during the Middle Ages the very wealthy may have had a high phosphorus sword for summer and a low phosphorus sword for winter (Rostoker & Bronson 1990, p. 22).




Iron ore






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  • 2




    Two problems with this: (i) the blacksmith would notice, (ii) wrought iron is good because impurities work their way out at least to some extent. If you could continuously contaminate the iron with P or C, and the smith was under time pressure, you may be able to get him to make substandard work
    – Chris H
    17 hours ago










  • Cut off their source of a few key materials and they won't be able to flux the pot of metal, leaving all sorts of crap in there.
    – Mazura
    16 hours ago










  • @Mazura they'll notice they're missing the materials.
    – immibis
    1 hour ago










  • @immibis - If they're used to using limestone from a specific location, and that becomes tainted or unavailable, and then they have to start using borax, it might take a while to get the process down again.
    – Mazura
    1 hour ago



















5














Use a STASIS spell to alter the supply chain, and later remove the spell to destroy the weapons.



Replace the Carbon used in the smelting and forging with Carbon-11, which has a half-life of about 20 minutes, but apply a stasis spell to the carbon to keep it from decaying. This could be done by a magic-user placed at the gates, watching for the ox carts filled with coal or charcoal.



The incorruptible smiths smelt the iron and forge the swords with the Carbon-11. It works in the forge the same way. The strength is tested, and the swords are pronounced excellent. They get the martensite profile just right. The swords are deployed to the troops. They work perfectly during training. Against other foes, they work as expected -- they are sharp and subtle, yielding to glancing blows, yet slicing through armor and bone. But -- when the critical battle starts, remove the stasis spell. The swords and armor will quickly become weakened as the carbon turns to boron and the crystal structure breaks down.



There may also be a benefit from the positron radiation emitted by the iron after the stasis is released.






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  • 2




    In medieval times, the carbon used in smelting and forging came from the coal being used to provide the heat. It would take one heck of a complicated stasis spell to permit coal to burn without letting it decay radioactively.
    – Mark
    2 hours ago










  • It could be a simpler spell, since it need affect only the nuclus and could leave the electrons to wander at will.
    – cmm
    1 hour ago



















3














Given the answer of Willk, it appears to be unlikely to manipulate the process without the smith noticing it. If you don't want to use magic directly, use something similar instead: Alchemy.



Some mixture has been used for the iron which takes over time with incrementing effect over days or weeks. The initiator could be the heat applied in the forge or the water to cool it off - which means the mixture could be applied even earlier. It would render the metal brittle until it unexpectedly breaks, but given the progress rate it would occur quite rapidly. The blacksmith could not notice anything because the effect is near non-existent in the first days or weeks.



The process wouldn't require some form of "intelligence" which magic would usually contain (do effect x when y is triggered, but not z). It would rather be a fictional chemical process. Maybe something in the real world exists which does something similar or works similarly.






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  • I wouldn't know how to create something like this without the biochemist in my game telling me that what I'm saying is not possible. If something like this exists in the real world, this definitely will be accepted as the answer, thanks.
    – NewGM
    10 hours ago










  • Does your biochemist allow you to have rust monsters?
    – Alex H.
    9 hours ago










  • I'm not aware of anything that would work on iron. Mercury would work just fine for damaging aluminum swords, but aluminum is a lousy material for making swords out of.
    – Mark
    2 hours ago



















3














The blacksmiths use a very sophisticated technique to produce their legendary swords that requires repeated forging and cooling. This produces a very special flexible and durable but also very sharp steel....
Unbeknownst to them, the process requires certain trace elements to be present in the ore,
and they get this (or more likely wootz steel made from this) special ore shipped from a neighboring country.



The adversary manages to capture some of these shipments and replace it with wootz steel from a different mine. To the blacksmiths everything looks just the same, but the swords are too brittle now. No one understands what has happened.



Note that this has a precedent in human history: There is a hypothesis that Damascus steel got its very special properties from the presence of trace metals in the ore combined with a special manufacturing process. At some point in history the blacksmiths lost the ability to reproduce that steel and this might be because the respective mines in India were exhausted.



Wikipedia: Damascus steel



Reibold et al., Carbon Nanotubes in ancient Damascus sabre (2006), Nature 444, 286






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  • I can see this working with my setting, I'll consider it. Thanks.
    – NewGM
    10 hours ago










  • You could get a believable drop from exceptional swords to average swords this way, but a drop from "exceptional" to "defective" would be noticed during the forging process.
    – Mark
    2 hours ago



















3














The saboteurs entered the blacksmiths guild. With some help they ascended in ranks, becoming the guild masters. They transformed the guild in a company with employed blacksmiths. They added a huge bureaucratic top-layer: Accounting, human resources, quality control, sales, marketing, R&D, supply chain management, legal and controlling. The blacksmiths got gradually replaced with inexperienced workers. The work got compartmentalized. As a result workers are unable to understand the entire organization. Then they started with quality degradation: Controlling argued that the contracted quality could still be meet while introducing inferior raw materials (iron ore rich in phosphor and sulfur). R&D had is scope changed to focus on lowering costs. Supply chain management squeezed every penny from the suppliers, resulting in raw material degradation. Legal sued the local news herald when they mocked the inferior quality.



When the city council became concerned about the degrading quality sabotage got further.



The saboteurs argued that city help is needed as competing cities are advancing in iron processing. They asked for import tariffs and city subventions and got them. They introduced a city-financed institute for advancement in iron processing. The council pressed the city council to force independent manufacturers into the iron conglomerate. The blacksmith school got incorporated into the iron institute and replaced by cheap least minimum training. The institute declared that the brittle iron weapons/armor parts are state of the art, opposing opinions got suppressed by libel charges and by media campaigns, accusing them to be non-patriotic.



In the end the entire iron processing ability of the city got corrupted. Since nobody realizes the dimension of the degradation it is unlikely that the cities iron processing ability will ever raise to past quality.






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  • 4




    HR, R&D, corporate, etc. in middle age?
    – L.Dutch
    16 hours ago






  • 6




    It sounds like something between Orwell's "Animal Farm" and the revolutionary claims of that peasant in "Monthy Python and the Holy Grail".
    – Rekesoft
    15 hours ago










  • @L.Dutch The first recognizable corporations were formed in the middle ages. If memory serves, the first one was to develop a system of dams for harnessing water power for milling. Blacksmithing actually lends itself to this because, in spite of modern stereotypes, medieval smithing of is not really solo occupation - it takes a staff to keep the smithy functioning at peak capacity.
    – pojo-guy
    12 hours ago








  • 2




    @pojo-guy, I doubt medieval corporations had HR, accounting and all the circus..
    – L.Dutch
    11 hours ago






  • 1




    @pojo-guy The detailed organization can end at shop level, with each smith responsible for the smith's shop. It's useful to have some sort of guild structure above that, but each blacksmith will be an independent business and will know what's going out of the shop. BTW, the "cheap on-the-job learning" is termed "apprenticeship", and is the standard way someone would learn to be a smith in those times. Real blacksmiths would sound the alarm on quality degradation, so it could not be done in any way quietly.
    – David Thornley
    10 hours ago



















3














I'm assuming from your username and the setting details that you're running some sort of D&D or D&D-adjacent system. There's always one answer to that guy who got full plate before he should: the rust monster.



Rust monsters have strong corrosive materials in their antennae, and they're flimsy enough that an enterprising hostile kingdom or well funded crime syndicate could capture, breed, and harvest them.



Your saboteurs will need fairly lengthy access to the caravan to pull this off, but if the arms are coated in some kind of clear coat (varnish, lacquer, whatever - armor should come treated from the forge, but the weapons themselves may or may not be and would be the responsibility of the saboteur - shouldn't raise any alarms to find them coated) and stored with powdered rust monster antennae (in the sheath, on resin paper wrapping the armor, whatever), the arms themselves will:




  1. Leave the blacksmith in good condition

  2. Survive transit reasonably well, depending on the care taken by the saboteurs

  3. Perform well in their initial inspection, if treated gently enough

  4. Fail faster in the field if they were used in practice, but should fail eventually if used hard enough in battle regardless.

  5. Show signs that look like water damage that could be blamed on an incompetent carman (wagon driver), marshal (officer in charge of transport), or lighterman (ship-to-shore ferryman)






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  • You are correct this is in a D&D campaign. I'll have this in mind, thank you.
    – NewGM
    6 hours ago










  • The usual protective coating for iron is oil.
    – Mark
    2 hours ago



















2














One option could be a poor quality ore the blacksmith was working with. If the ore had an excess of one metal or another to give it unfavorable qualities, then it may be possible the final product would fail. If it had excessive amounts of lead, tin or copper, the weapon would be too soft and deform easily. If it contained excessive amounts of nickel, cobalt or tungsten, the armor would be too strong, thus brittle and may crack upon receiving a blow.



Now, any good blacksmith would recognize that the metal is not tuning out as expected, however, if he had several apprentices, they may not recognize the poor materials and force the piece into the desired form despite the material not wanting to play






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    The iron used to build everything (weapons and armors) could've been saboted by adding more carbon inside, before being sold to the blacksmith. If more than 2,11% of carbon is added to iron, it becomes steel and isn't as flexible as the iron. Then, it will break.



    But if you have magic in your world, why not think about another material than carbon added to iron, which degrade it slowly (for the blacksmith not notice it) and make weapons and armor bad quality faster (degradation appears after the first fight you said).






    share|improve this answer

















    • 5




      The problem with this solution is that the blacksmith would know instantly that the metal was bad. You're correct: up to 2% makes steel. Add just a bit too much carbon and you end up with pig iron --- strong but brittle. You can't add much more than that as I've read iron can only take so much carbon. A smith will Know, because the pig iron will literally crumble when he starts hammering it. He'll never be able to make a weapon from that.
      – elemtilas
      22 hours ago



















    1














    Some techniques for differential hardening of blades (wherein the edge is very hard, while the core of the blade is more flexible to provide strength) involve the application of clay along the center of the blade before the final hardening. If your saboteurs tampered with this clay and changed its characteristics, it could lead to a blade that looked right, but was actually very fragile.



    There are quality control protocols that would catch the issue (most bladesmiths do a fairly rigorous bend test to determine the flexibility and strength of their blades), but if your smith is working past his capacity, those might fall by the wayside.






    share|improve this answer





















    • The characteristic of clay that matters is its insulating ability. I don't see how you could change this enough to make a difference while still having something that could be called "clay".
      – Mark
      2 hours ago



















    1














    Not the most effective way but an interesting mythological occurrence of this by Loki can be read in places like here https://norse-mythology.org/tales/loki-and-the-dwarves/



    The short version of this is Loki turned into a fly and distracted the dwarf who was working the bellows in an attempt to sabotage their attempts at crafting.



    Transforming into a fly might not be a reasonable method but unleashing a plague of rats/vermin/sickness on the workers at the smithy could slow down their production, cause them to cut corners and release shoddy work.






    share|improve this answer





























      1














      Quench bath contamination leading to Stress Corrosion Cracking down the line



      As other answers here indicate -- these smiths' reputations and livelihoods are on the line here, so their processes would be in good nick and unlikely to change suddenly, and they would likely notice issues with raw material changes, say to the ore, charcoal, or fluxes used. Furthermore, even if they didn't, proofing of the blades (acceptance testing) by the quartermaster would weed out blades that were, say, extremely cold short due to phosphorous contamination.



      This means we need to get diabolical here, and look at the things a smith or quartermaster cannot see, or catch immediately with tests. In particular, preindustrial forging relied exclusively on static, water-cooled quenching and tempering processes, and these will leave traces of salts present in the quench bath on the blade as it is removed from the bath (simply from water boiling off upon contact with hot iron).



      Normally, this isn't an issue, as the contents of most water sources aren't going leave behind anything that will cause serious trouble down the line. However, if the quench bath was "spiked" with something that was a potent promoter of Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) in carbon steels (carbonates may work, depending on their activity at or near body temperature) under mild conditions, this could effectively, yet insidiously, sabotage their efforts to produce quality blades.



      As such a contaminated blade was handled and used, moisture from the environment that gets past whatever oiling is used to protect the blade from rusting would combine with the boiled-out SCC promoters in crevices in the weapon, such as at the blade-to-handle interface. Furthermore, such points would also be stress risers in the blade, and combined with residual stresses from forging and heat-treatment as well as the rigors of usage, this could lead to stresses at the risers exceeding the SCC critical stresses for the material. Finally, a well-kept sword is going to be in an environment that is only mildly corrosive (due to normal maintenance activity vs. being exposed to rain, blood, etc).



      The end upshot would be swords that look fine, proof fine when received by the quartermaster, yet snap in half like twigs months or years later. A modern failure analysis would reveal that the broken sword was spiderwebbed with invisible yet lethal cracks in key spots, despite looking the part of a well-kept sword by any account chosen.






      share|improve this answer





















      • "carbonates may work" - Which carbonates are you talking about? A hand full of soda ash? Toss in a few TUMS? Doesn't matter?
        – Mazura
        2 hours ago










      • Any residual salts from the quench bath are going to be removed the first time the sword is cleaned.
        – Mark
        1 hour ago



















      -1














      Have you ever seen one of those amazing videos of aluminum being dissolved by gallium or mercury?



      Your blacksmiths likely made perfectly good equipment, and your saboteurs intercepted it along the way to the army and treated it with mercury, greatly weakening its internal structure. These videos emphasize that the liquid metal won't be able to penetrate and react with the solid metal unless you remove the outer oxide layer first, but it seems you can do that with sandpaper or any other simple tool that is strong enough to scratch the metal. It only takes a few small scratches before the liquid metal can penetrate the solid metal and weaken it from the inside. This is why mercury and gallium aren't allowed on airplanes. It seems that the process can weaken the metal enough to fail under light stress in only a few minutes, according to some of these YouTube videos. It doesn't take much to tear these apart by hand, so you may want to just weaken a few parts in the center of the shield so it doesn't fail until it is in combat. They wouldn't even need to treat all of the equipment, even 10% failure rate would likely make them lose faith in the whole batch.



      According to the Wikipedia page on liquid metal embrittlement,




      The embrittling effects of mercury were first recognized by Pliny the Elder circa 78 AD.




      I'm not a chemist so perhaps I don't know what to look for, but I mostly am finding details of how it affects aluminum in the context of airplane safety. Those are some modern alloys that wouldn't have been used in the middle ages, but if the effects were in fact noted in 78 AD, then it must happen to some extent in metals that were known and used at that time.



      All your saboteurs would need is access to liquid mercury (not too hard to get then), unsupervised access to the weapons and armor (maybe they were the ones transporting them to the army, or they had secret access to the armory in the middle of the night after the shipment was delivered), and a few minutes with an alchemist to learn about the method.



      I'm just imagining the villains loading up the perfectly good equipment into the back of a covered wagon, and during the transport one of them sits in the back scratching shields with a few nails while a second dunks them in a tub of mercury, like an assembly line. You can work out what the details are for your story, but as long as the basic flow is



      Good metal -> Scratched -> Quickly coated in mercury around the scratch before oxide layer can completely reform -> Wash mercury off, handling the equipment very carefully from this point on -> Deliver to army



      then you're in good shape.






      share|improve this answer























      • The reason you're finding so much about the effect of mercury (or gallium) on aluminum is because the effects are so dramatic. Iron, on the other hand, is almost completely unaffected (among other things, it doesn't have a protective oxide coating).
        – Mark
        1 hour ago











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      15 Answers
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      41














      Replicas



      The blacksmith did his job to perfection - the equipment just never got to the army.



      The saboeurs act as middlemen in the delivery system. The carriages holding the gear are intercepted midway and swapped with shitty quality replicas that look exactly like the blacksmith's equipment.



      This could work in at least two ways:




      1. The saboteurs have a few inside men. At least one of them should be one of the armour/weapon designers that would let the sabouteurs know, in advance, what the gear will look like. The others should be the members of the delivery crew;

      2. As pointed by Mason Wheeler, they don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver, they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.


      This would also be profitable to the saboteurs, since they could still sell the high quality gear to someone else.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 7




        +1 for giving the only answer I've seen so far that realistically works around the "the blacksmith would notice" problem without requiring the blacksmith to be a saboteur, in spite of what you wrote. They don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver; they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.
        – Mason Wheeler
        10 hours ago








      • 4




        'And the fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your swords, and the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine...'
        – void_ptr
        10 hours ago
















      41














      Replicas



      The blacksmith did his job to perfection - the equipment just never got to the army.



      The saboeurs act as middlemen in the delivery system. The carriages holding the gear are intercepted midway and swapped with shitty quality replicas that look exactly like the blacksmith's equipment.



      This could work in at least two ways:




      1. The saboteurs have a few inside men. At least one of them should be one of the armour/weapon designers that would let the sabouteurs know, in advance, what the gear will look like. The others should be the members of the delivery crew;

      2. As pointed by Mason Wheeler, they don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver, they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.


      This would also be profitable to the saboteurs, since they could still sell the high quality gear to someone else.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 7




        +1 for giving the only answer I've seen so far that realistically works around the "the blacksmith would notice" problem without requiring the blacksmith to be a saboteur, in spite of what you wrote. They don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver; they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.
        – Mason Wheeler
        10 hours ago








      • 4




        'And the fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your swords, and the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine...'
        – void_ptr
        10 hours ago














      41












      41








      41






      Replicas



      The blacksmith did his job to perfection - the equipment just never got to the army.



      The saboeurs act as middlemen in the delivery system. The carriages holding the gear are intercepted midway and swapped with shitty quality replicas that look exactly like the blacksmith's equipment.



      This could work in at least two ways:




      1. The saboteurs have a few inside men. At least one of them should be one of the armour/weapon designers that would let the sabouteurs know, in advance, what the gear will look like. The others should be the members of the delivery crew;

      2. As pointed by Mason Wheeler, they don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver, they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.


      This would also be profitable to the saboteurs, since they could still sell the high quality gear to someone else.






      share|improve this answer














      Replicas



      The blacksmith did his job to perfection - the equipment just never got to the army.



      The saboeurs act as middlemen in the delivery system. The carriages holding the gear are intercepted midway and swapped with shitty quality replicas that look exactly like the blacksmith's equipment.



      This could work in at least two ways:




      1. The saboteurs have a few inside men. At least one of them should be one of the armour/weapon designers that would let the sabouteurs know, in advance, what the gear will look like. The others should be the members of the delivery crew;

      2. As pointed by Mason Wheeler, they don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver, they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.


      This would also be profitable to the saboteurs, since they could still sell the high quality gear to someone else.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 10 hours ago

























      answered 11 hours ago









      MagusMagus

      2,4841130




      2,4841130








      • 7




        +1 for giving the only answer I've seen so far that realistically works around the "the blacksmith would notice" problem without requiring the blacksmith to be a saboteur, in spite of what you wrote. They don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver; they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.
        – Mason Wheeler
        10 hours ago








      • 4




        'And the fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your swords, and the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine...'
        – void_ptr
        10 hours ago














      • 7




        +1 for giving the only answer I've seen so far that realistically works around the "the blacksmith would notice" problem without requiring the blacksmith to be a saboteur, in spite of what you wrote. They don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver; they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.
        – Mason Wheeler
        10 hours ago








      • 4




        'And the fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your swords, and the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine...'
        – void_ptr
        10 hours ago








      7




      7




      +1 for giving the only answer I've seen so far that realistically works around the "the blacksmith would notice" problem without requiring the blacksmith to be a saboteur, in spite of what you wrote. They don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver; they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.
      – Mason Wheeler
      10 hours ago






      +1 for giving the only answer I've seen so far that realistically works around the "the blacksmith would notice" problem without requiring the blacksmith to be a saboteur, in spite of what you wrote. They don't need an inside man to let them know what they're going to deliver; they just need what they deliver to be predictable and routine enough that the saboteurs can anticipate it.
      – Mason Wheeler
      10 hours ago






      4




      4




      'And the fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your swords, and the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine...'
      – void_ptr
      10 hours ago




      'And the fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your swords, and the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine...'
      – void_ptr
      10 hours ago











      41














      Heat up the products above the eutectoid temperature to form austenite and then rapidly quench it to induce the formation of martensite. This will induce the formation of hardened steel which is more brittle.




      Martensite is formed in carbon steels by the rapid cooling (quenching) of the austenite form of iron at such a high rate that carbon atoms do not have time to diffuse out of the crystal structure in large enough quantities to form cementite. [...] Too much martensite leaves steel brittle; too little leaves it soft.




      A skilled artisan will use this process to make the outer of the product hard, but he would do it to the right point, so that the core is left resilient.



      The saboteur would just move past this optimum and ruin the final result. A bit like baking a pizza 5 minutes more: from crust to char with the blink of an eye.






      share|improve this answer























      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
        – L.Dutch
        7 hours ago






      • 3




        While this form of sabotage would certainly render the metal brittle and useless, it would also introduce a ton of visual artifacts that anyone from the blacksmith to the swordsman would readily notice, leading to the sabotage getting discovered quickly. The only way to rectify this would be to somehow intercept the swords after they leave the blacksmith's shop and do the ruining and repolishing before delivering them, but then it would be easier to just swap them entirely with swords specifically made to look pretty but break on first usage. As such, Magus' answer is far more plausible.
        – Abion47
        6 hours ago






      • 4




        Medieval arms and weapons would have been proofed before being sent to the front lines. Even if production was being rushed due to wartime demands, any vaguely awake quartermaster would have taken a couple of swords and smacked them against some of the armor, simply to check that the blacksmiths aren't cheating the army.
        – Tacroy
        6 hours ago
















      41














      Heat up the products above the eutectoid temperature to form austenite and then rapidly quench it to induce the formation of martensite. This will induce the formation of hardened steel which is more brittle.




      Martensite is formed in carbon steels by the rapid cooling (quenching) of the austenite form of iron at such a high rate that carbon atoms do not have time to diffuse out of the crystal structure in large enough quantities to form cementite. [...] Too much martensite leaves steel brittle; too little leaves it soft.




      A skilled artisan will use this process to make the outer of the product hard, but he would do it to the right point, so that the core is left resilient.



      The saboteur would just move past this optimum and ruin the final result. A bit like baking a pizza 5 minutes more: from crust to char with the blink of an eye.






      share|improve this answer























      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
        – L.Dutch
        7 hours ago






      • 3




        While this form of sabotage would certainly render the metal brittle and useless, it would also introduce a ton of visual artifacts that anyone from the blacksmith to the swordsman would readily notice, leading to the sabotage getting discovered quickly. The only way to rectify this would be to somehow intercept the swords after they leave the blacksmith's shop and do the ruining and repolishing before delivering them, but then it would be easier to just swap them entirely with swords specifically made to look pretty but break on first usage. As such, Magus' answer is far more plausible.
        – Abion47
        6 hours ago






      • 4




        Medieval arms and weapons would have been proofed before being sent to the front lines. Even if production was being rushed due to wartime demands, any vaguely awake quartermaster would have taken a couple of swords and smacked them against some of the armor, simply to check that the blacksmiths aren't cheating the army.
        – Tacroy
        6 hours ago














      41












      41








      41






      Heat up the products above the eutectoid temperature to form austenite and then rapidly quench it to induce the formation of martensite. This will induce the formation of hardened steel which is more brittle.




      Martensite is formed in carbon steels by the rapid cooling (quenching) of the austenite form of iron at such a high rate that carbon atoms do not have time to diffuse out of the crystal structure in large enough quantities to form cementite. [...] Too much martensite leaves steel brittle; too little leaves it soft.




      A skilled artisan will use this process to make the outer of the product hard, but he would do it to the right point, so that the core is left resilient.



      The saboteur would just move past this optimum and ruin the final result. A bit like baking a pizza 5 minutes more: from crust to char with the blink of an eye.






      share|improve this answer














      Heat up the products above the eutectoid temperature to form austenite and then rapidly quench it to induce the formation of martensite. This will induce the formation of hardened steel which is more brittle.




      Martensite is formed in carbon steels by the rapid cooling (quenching) of the austenite form of iron at such a high rate that carbon atoms do not have time to diffuse out of the crystal structure in large enough quantities to form cementite. [...] Too much martensite leaves steel brittle; too little leaves it soft.




      A skilled artisan will use this process to make the outer of the product hard, but he would do it to the right point, so that the core is left resilient.



      The saboteur would just move past this optimum and ruin the final result. A bit like baking a pizza 5 minutes more: from crust to char with the blink of an eye.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 16 hours ago

























      answered 20 hours ago









      L.DutchL.Dutch

      78.6k26188383




      78.6k26188383












      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
        – L.Dutch
        7 hours ago






      • 3




        While this form of sabotage would certainly render the metal brittle and useless, it would also introduce a ton of visual artifacts that anyone from the blacksmith to the swordsman would readily notice, leading to the sabotage getting discovered quickly. The only way to rectify this would be to somehow intercept the swords after they leave the blacksmith's shop and do the ruining and repolishing before delivering them, but then it would be easier to just swap them entirely with swords specifically made to look pretty but break on first usage. As such, Magus' answer is far more plausible.
        – Abion47
        6 hours ago






      • 4




        Medieval arms and weapons would have been proofed before being sent to the front lines. Even if production was being rushed due to wartime demands, any vaguely awake quartermaster would have taken a couple of swords and smacked them against some of the armor, simply to check that the blacksmiths aren't cheating the army.
        – Tacroy
        6 hours ago


















      • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
        – L.Dutch
        7 hours ago






      • 3




        While this form of sabotage would certainly render the metal brittle and useless, it would also introduce a ton of visual artifacts that anyone from the blacksmith to the swordsman would readily notice, leading to the sabotage getting discovered quickly. The only way to rectify this would be to somehow intercept the swords after they leave the blacksmith's shop and do the ruining and repolishing before delivering them, but then it would be easier to just swap them entirely with swords specifically made to look pretty but break on first usage. As such, Magus' answer is far more plausible.
        – Abion47
        6 hours ago






      • 4




        Medieval arms and weapons would have been proofed before being sent to the front lines. Even if production was being rushed due to wartime demands, any vaguely awake quartermaster would have taken a couple of swords and smacked them against some of the armor, simply to check that the blacksmiths aren't cheating the army.
        – Tacroy
        6 hours ago
















      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      – L.Dutch
      7 hours ago




      Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
      – L.Dutch
      7 hours ago




      3




      3




      While this form of sabotage would certainly render the metal brittle and useless, it would also introduce a ton of visual artifacts that anyone from the blacksmith to the swordsman would readily notice, leading to the sabotage getting discovered quickly. The only way to rectify this would be to somehow intercept the swords after they leave the blacksmith's shop and do the ruining and repolishing before delivering them, but then it would be easier to just swap them entirely with swords specifically made to look pretty but break on first usage. As such, Magus' answer is far more plausible.
      – Abion47
      6 hours ago




      While this form of sabotage would certainly render the metal brittle and useless, it would also introduce a ton of visual artifacts that anyone from the blacksmith to the swordsman would readily notice, leading to the sabotage getting discovered quickly. The only way to rectify this would be to somehow intercept the swords after they leave the blacksmith's shop and do the ruining and repolishing before delivering them, but then it would be easier to just swap them entirely with swords specifically made to look pretty but break on first usage. As such, Magus' answer is far more plausible.
      – Abion47
      6 hours ago




      4




      4




      Medieval arms and weapons would have been proofed before being sent to the front lines. Even if production was being rushed due to wartime demands, any vaguely awake quartermaster would have taken a couple of swords and smacked them against some of the armor, simply to check that the blacksmiths aren't cheating the army.
      – Tacroy
      6 hours ago




      Medieval arms and weapons would have been proofed before being sent to the front lines. Even if production was being rushed due to wartime demands, any vaguely awake quartermaster would have taken a couple of swords and smacked them against some of the armor, simply to check that the blacksmiths aren't cheating the army.
      – Tacroy
      6 hours ago











      8














      @JBH points out the difficulty. If you provide poor materials the smiths will detect problems because the metal will not act right. Quality control is integral to their line of work. Also, the smiths are not really bribable - it is their livelihood and if they get a reputation for turning out shoddy products that is the end of their work. A bribe would have to be enough to retire on.



      Sabotaging the materials after they are made is really hard too. They are steel and steel is durable. Damage enough to make them fail on first use will be readily evident, certainly to the smiths but probably to anyone familiar with such items.



      I can think of only one option.



      Changeling.



      Fairies take human children and leave in their place supernatural creatures who pretend to be children. The changeling children are sickly or weird or spooky. This has to be the solution for the armor and unfortunately, it probably requires magic. Magical entities (though probably not fairies, given they hate iron) steal the finished high-quality arms and armor and substitute pottery items, with a glamour cast upon them to make them look and sound like the originals. Of course, the changeling armaments fail immediately on use.



      I like the idea that when someone figures out how to dispel the glamour, the crude pottery items are seen to have scrawled on them dirty words and obscene drawings labeled with the names of various knights.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 9




        A more mundane version of this idea is to hijack the equipment during shipment and replace it. It's a two-fer! You get the good stuff and your enemy gets bupkis.
        – JBH
        20 hours ago










      • Intercepting during shipping could potentially heat the equipment and infuse some weakening chemical (or magic?) into it before cooling and letting it on its way to delivery.
        – Ralph Bolton
        17 hours ago






      • 9




        A bribe would have to be enough to retire on and to flee. The penalty for military sabotage in a mediaeval society isn't likely to just be loss of livelihood
        – Chris H
        17 hours ago






      • 5




        @ChrisH Sabotaging military equipment is going to put you in serious trouble even in modern democratic societies. We're talking about treason, here.
        – Rekesoft
        15 hours ago










      • If magic enters the scene (as allowed by OP), the possibilities are many. Why would this be the only one? Why not a magic dwarf casting a spell to turn the metal to bubble gum once it is used in a real fight? Or anything else? Are you talking about a particular universe? Also, how do you know that fairies don't like iron in OP's universe? This answer really doesn't make any sense to me but it is upvoted and Wilk is a reputable member of this community, so am I missing something?
        – Legisey
        11 hours ago
















      8














      @JBH points out the difficulty. If you provide poor materials the smiths will detect problems because the metal will not act right. Quality control is integral to their line of work. Also, the smiths are not really bribable - it is their livelihood and if they get a reputation for turning out shoddy products that is the end of their work. A bribe would have to be enough to retire on.



      Sabotaging the materials after they are made is really hard too. They are steel and steel is durable. Damage enough to make them fail on first use will be readily evident, certainly to the smiths but probably to anyone familiar with such items.



      I can think of only one option.



      Changeling.



      Fairies take human children and leave in their place supernatural creatures who pretend to be children. The changeling children are sickly or weird or spooky. This has to be the solution for the armor and unfortunately, it probably requires magic. Magical entities (though probably not fairies, given they hate iron) steal the finished high-quality arms and armor and substitute pottery items, with a glamour cast upon them to make them look and sound like the originals. Of course, the changeling armaments fail immediately on use.



      I like the idea that when someone figures out how to dispel the glamour, the crude pottery items are seen to have scrawled on them dirty words and obscene drawings labeled with the names of various knights.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 9




        A more mundane version of this idea is to hijack the equipment during shipment and replace it. It's a two-fer! You get the good stuff and your enemy gets bupkis.
        – JBH
        20 hours ago










      • Intercepting during shipping could potentially heat the equipment and infuse some weakening chemical (or magic?) into it before cooling and letting it on its way to delivery.
        – Ralph Bolton
        17 hours ago






      • 9




        A bribe would have to be enough to retire on and to flee. The penalty for military sabotage in a mediaeval society isn't likely to just be loss of livelihood
        – Chris H
        17 hours ago






      • 5




        @ChrisH Sabotaging military equipment is going to put you in serious trouble even in modern democratic societies. We're talking about treason, here.
        – Rekesoft
        15 hours ago










      • If magic enters the scene (as allowed by OP), the possibilities are many. Why would this be the only one? Why not a magic dwarf casting a spell to turn the metal to bubble gum once it is used in a real fight? Or anything else? Are you talking about a particular universe? Also, how do you know that fairies don't like iron in OP's universe? This answer really doesn't make any sense to me but it is upvoted and Wilk is a reputable member of this community, so am I missing something?
        – Legisey
        11 hours ago














      8












      8








      8






      @JBH points out the difficulty. If you provide poor materials the smiths will detect problems because the metal will not act right. Quality control is integral to their line of work. Also, the smiths are not really bribable - it is their livelihood and if they get a reputation for turning out shoddy products that is the end of their work. A bribe would have to be enough to retire on.



      Sabotaging the materials after they are made is really hard too. They are steel and steel is durable. Damage enough to make them fail on first use will be readily evident, certainly to the smiths but probably to anyone familiar with such items.



      I can think of only one option.



      Changeling.



      Fairies take human children and leave in their place supernatural creatures who pretend to be children. The changeling children are sickly or weird or spooky. This has to be the solution for the armor and unfortunately, it probably requires magic. Magical entities (though probably not fairies, given they hate iron) steal the finished high-quality arms and armor and substitute pottery items, with a glamour cast upon them to make them look and sound like the originals. Of course, the changeling armaments fail immediately on use.



      I like the idea that when someone figures out how to dispel the glamour, the crude pottery items are seen to have scrawled on them dirty words and obscene drawings labeled with the names of various knights.






      share|improve this answer














      @JBH points out the difficulty. If you provide poor materials the smiths will detect problems because the metal will not act right. Quality control is integral to their line of work. Also, the smiths are not really bribable - it is their livelihood and if they get a reputation for turning out shoddy products that is the end of their work. A bribe would have to be enough to retire on.



      Sabotaging the materials after they are made is really hard too. They are steel and steel is durable. Damage enough to make them fail on first use will be readily evident, certainly to the smiths but probably to anyone familiar with such items.



      I can think of only one option.



      Changeling.



      Fairies take human children and leave in their place supernatural creatures who pretend to be children. The changeling children are sickly or weird or spooky. This has to be the solution for the armor and unfortunately, it probably requires magic. Magical entities (though probably not fairies, given they hate iron) steal the finished high-quality arms and armor and substitute pottery items, with a glamour cast upon them to make them look and sound like the originals. Of course, the changeling armaments fail immediately on use.



      I like the idea that when someone figures out how to dispel the glamour, the crude pottery items are seen to have scrawled on them dirty words and obscene drawings labeled with the names of various knights.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 12 hours ago









      Gryphon

      3,05822354




      3,05822354










      answered 21 hours ago









      WillkWillk

      103k25197434




      103k25197434








      • 9




        A more mundane version of this idea is to hijack the equipment during shipment and replace it. It's a two-fer! You get the good stuff and your enemy gets bupkis.
        – JBH
        20 hours ago










      • Intercepting during shipping could potentially heat the equipment and infuse some weakening chemical (or magic?) into it before cooling and letting it on its way to delivery.
        – Ralph Bolton
        17 hours ago






      • 9




        A bribe would have to be enough to retire on and to flee. The penalty for military sabotage in a mediaeval society isn't likely to just be loss of livelihood
        – Chris H
        17 hours ago






      • 5




        @ChrisH Sabotaging military equipment is going to put you in serious trouble even in modern democratic societies. We're talking about treason, here.
        – Rekesoft
        15 hours ago










      • If magic enters the scene (as allowed by OP), the possibilities are many. Why would this be the only one? Why not a magic dwarf casting a spell to turn the metal to bubble gum once it is used in a real fight? Or anything else? Are you talking about a particular universe? Also, how do you know that fairies don't like iron in OP's universe? This answer really doesn't make any sense to me but it is upvoted and Wilk is a reputable member of this community, so am I missing something?
        – Legisey
        11 hours ago














      • 9




        A more mundane version of this idea is to hijack the equipment during shipment and replace it. It's a two-fer! You get the good stuff and your enemy gets bupkis.
        – JBH
        20 hours ago










      • Intercepting during shipping could potentially heat the equipment and infuse some weakening chemical (or magic?) into it before cooling and letting it on its way to delivery.
        – Ralph Bolton
        17 hours ago






      • 9




        A bribe would have to be enough to retire on and to flee. The penalty for military sabotage in a mediaeval society isn't likely to just be loss of livelihood
        – Chris H
        17 hours ago






      • 5




        @ChrisH Sabotaging military equipment is going to put you in serious trouble even in modern democratic societies. We're talking about treason, here.
        – Rekesoft
        15 hours ago










      • If magic enters the scene (as allowed by OP), the possibilities are many. Why would this be the only one? Why not a magic dwarf casting a spell to turn the metal to bubble gum once it is used in a real fight? Or anything else? Are you talking about a particular universe? Also, how do you know that fairies don't like iron in OP's universe? This answer really doesn't make any sense to me but it is upvoted and Wilk is a reputable member of this community, so am I missing something?
        – Legisey
        11 hours ago








      9




      9




      A more mundane version of this idea is to hijack the equipment during shipment and replace it. It's a two-fer! You get the good stuff and your enemy gets bupkis.
      – JBH
      20 hours ago




      A more mundane version of this idea is to hijack the equipment during shipment and replace it. It's a two-fer! You get the good stuff and your enemy gets bupkis.
      – JBH
      20 hours ago












      Intercepting during shipping could potentially heat the equipment and infuse some weakening chemical (or magic?) into it before cooling and letting it on its way to delivery.
      – Ralph Bolton
      17 hours ago




      Intercepting during shipping could potentially heat the equipment and infuse some weakening chemical (or magic?) into it before cooling and letting it on its way to delivery.
      – Ralph Bolton
      17 hours ago




      9




      9




      A bribe would have to be enough to retire on and to flee. The penalty for military sabotage in a mediaeval society isn't likely to just be loss of livelihood
      – Chris H
      17 hours ago




      A bribe would have to be enough to retire on and to flee. The penalty for military sabotage in a mediaeval society isn't likely to just be loss of livelihood
      – Chris H
      17 hours ago




      5




      5




      @ChrisH Sabotaging military equipment is going to put you in serious trouble even in modern democratic societies. We're talking about treason, here.
      – Rekesoft
      15 hours ago




      @ChrisH Sabotaging military equipment is going to put you in serious trouble even in modern democratic societies. We're talking about treason, here.
      – Rekesoft
      15 hours ago












      If magic enters the scene (as allowed by OP), the possibilities are many. Why would this be the only one? Why not a magic dwarf casting a spell to turn the metal to bubble gum once it is used in a real fight? Or anything else? Are you talking about a particular universe? Also, how do you know that fairies don't like iron in OP's universe? This answer really doesn't make any sense to me but it is upvoted and Wilk is a reputable member of this community, so am I missing something?
      – Legisey
      11 hours ago




      If magic enters the scene (as allowed by OP), the possibilities are many. Why would this be the only one? Why not a magic dwarf casting a spell to turn the metal to bubble gum once it is used in a real fight? Or anything else? Are you talking about a particular universe? Also, how do you know that fairies don't like iron in OP's universe? This answer really doesn't make any sense to me but it is upvoted and Wilk is a reputable member of this community, so am I missing something?
      – Legisey
      11 hours ago











      7














      Adding too much phosphorus to the iron makes it "cold short", i.e. brittle at low temperatures.




      The effects of cold shortness are magnified by temperature. Thus, a piece of iron that is perfectly serviceable in summer, might become extremely brittle in winter. There is some evidence that during the Middle Ages the very wealthy may have had a high phosphorus sword for summer and a low phosphorus sword for winter (Rostoker & Bronson 1990, p. 22).




      Iron ore






      share|improve this answer

















      • 2




        Two problems with this: (i) the blacksmith would notice, (ii) wrought iron is good because impurities work their way out at least to some extent. If you could continuously contaminate the iron with P or C, and the smith was under time pressure, you may be able to get him to make substandard work
        – Chris H
        17 hours ago










      • Cut off their source of a few key materials and they won't be able to flux the pot of metal, leaving all sorts of crap in there.
        – Mazura
        16 hours ago










      • @Mazura they'll notice they're missing the materials.
        – immibis
        1 hour ago










      • @immibis - If they're used to using limestone from a specific location, and that becomes tainted or unavailable, and then they have to start using borax, it might take a while to get the process down again.
        – Mazura
        1 hour ago
















      7














      Adding too much phosphorus to the iron makes it "cold short", i.e. brittle at low temperatures.




      The effects of cold shortness are magnified by temperature. Thus, a piece of iron that is perfectly serviceable in summer, might become extremely brittle in winter. There is some evidence that during the Middle Ages the very wealthy may have had a high phosphorus sword for summer and a low phosphorus sword for winter (Rostoker & Bronson 1990, p. 22).




      Iron ore






      share|improve this answer

















      • 2




        Two problems with this: (i) the blacksmith would notice, (ii) wrought iron is good because impurities work their way out at least to some extent. If you could continuously contaminate the iron with P or C, and the smith was under time pressure, you may be able to get him to make substandard work
        – Chris H
        17 hours ago










      • Cut off their source of a few key materials and they won't be able to flux the pot of metal, leaving all sorts of crap in there.
        – Mazura
        16 hours ago










      • @Mazura they'll notice they're missing the materials.
        – immibis
        1 hour ago










      • @immibis - If they're used to using limestone from a specific location, and that becomes tainted or unavailable, and then they have to start using borax, it might take a while to get the process down again.
        – Mazura
        1 hour ago














      7












      7








      7






      Adding too much phosphorus to the iron makes it "cold short", i.e. brittle at low temperatures.




      The effects of cold shortness are magnified by temperature. Thus, a piece of iron that is perfectly serviceable in summer, might become extremely brittle in winter. There is some evidence that during the Middle Ages the very wealthy may have had a high phosphorus sword for summer and a low phosphorus sword for winter (Rostoker & Bronson 1990, p. 22).




      Iron ore






      share|improve this answer












      Adding too much phosphorus to the iron makes it "cold short", i.e. brittle at low temperatures.




      The effects of cold shortness are magnified by temperature. Thus, a piece of iron that is perfectly serviceable in summer, might become extremely brittle in winter. There is some evidence that during the Middle Ages the very wealthy may have had a high phosphorus sword for summer and a low phosphorus sword for winter (Rostoker & Bronson 1990, p. 22).




      Iron ore







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 20 hours ago









      Christmas SnowChristmas Snow

      2,241313




      2,241313








      • 2




        Two problems with this: (i) the blacksmith would notice, (ii) wrought iron is good because impurities work their way out at least to some extent. If you could continuously contaminate the iron with P or C, and the smith was under time pressure, you may be able to get him to make substandard work
        – Chris H
        17 hours ago










      • Cut off their source of a few key materials and they won't be able to flux the pot of metal, leaving all sorts of crap in there.
        – Mazura
        16 hours ago










      • @Mazura they'll notice they're missing the materials.
        – immibis
        1 hour ago










      • @immibis - If they're used to using limestone from a specific location, and that becomes tainted or unavailable, and then they have to start using borax, it might take a while to get the process down again.
        – Mazura
        1 hour ago














      • 2




        Two problems with this: (i) the blacksmith would notice, (ii) wrought iron is good because impurities work their way out at least to some extent. If you could continuously contaminate the iron with P or C, and the smith was under time pressure, you may be able to get him to make substandard work
        – Chris H
        17 hours ago










      • Cut off their source of a few key materials and they won't be able to flux the pot of metal, leaving all sorts of crap in there.
        – Mazura
        16 hours ago










      • @Mazura they'll notice they're missing the materials.
        – immibis
        1 hour ago










      • @immibis - If they're used to using limestone from a specific location, and that becomes tainted or unavailable, and then they have to start using borax, it might take a while to get the process down again.
        – Mazura
        1 hour ago








      2




      2




      Two problems with this: (i) the blacksmith would notice, (ii) wrought iron is good because impurities work their way out at least to some extent. If you could continuously contaminate the iron with P or C, and the smith was under time pressure, you may be able to get him to make substandard work
      – Chris H
      17 hours ago




      Two problems with this: (i) the blacksmith would notice, (ii) wrought iron is good because impurities work their way out at least to some extent. If you could continuously contaminate the iron with P or C, and the smith was under time pressure, you may be able to get him to make substandard work
      – Chris H
      17 hours ago












      Cut off their source of a few key materials and they won't be able to flux the pot of metal, leaving all sorts of crap in there.
      – Mazura
      16 hours ago




      Cut off their source of a few key materials and they won't be able to flux the pot of metal, leaving all sorts of crap in there.
      – Mazura
      16 hours ago












      @Mazura they'll notice they're missing the materials.
      – immibis
      1 hour ago




      @Mazura they'll notice they're missing the materials.
      – immibis
      1 hour ago












      @immibis - If they're used to using limestone from a specific location, and that becomes tainted or unavailable, and then they have to start using borax, it might take a while to get the process down again.
      – Mazura
      1 hour ago




      @immibis - If they're used to using limestone from a specific location, and that becomes tainted or unavailable, and then they have to start using borax, it might take a while to get the process down again.
      – Mazura
      1 hour ago











      5














      Use a STASIS spell to alter the supply chain, and later remove the spell to destroy the weapons.



      Replace the Carbon used in the smelting and forging with Carbon-11, which has a half-life of about 20 minutes, but apply a stasis spell to the carbon to keep it from decaying. This could be done by a magic-user placed at the gates, watching for the ox carts filled with coal or charcoal.



      The incorruptible smiths smelt the iron and forge the swords with the Carbon-11. It works in the forge the same way. The strength is tested, and the swords are pronounced excellent. They get the martensite profile just right. The swords are deployed to the troops. They work perfectly during training. Against other foes, they work as expected -- they are sharp and subtle, yielding to glancing blows, yet slicing through armor and bone. But -- when the critical battle starts, remove the stasis spell. The swords and armor will quickly become weakened as the carbon turns to boron and the crystal structure breaks down.



      There may also be a benefit from the positron radiation emitted by the iron after the stasis is released.






      share|improve this answer

















      • 2




        In medieval times, the carbon used in smelting and forging came from the coal being used to provide the heat. It would take one heck of a complicated stasis spell to permit coal to burn without letting it decay radioactively.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago










      • It could be a simpler spell, since it need affect only the nuclus and could leave the electrons to wander at will.
        – cmm
        1 hour ago
















      5














      Use a STASIS spell to alter the supply chain, and later remove the spell to destroy the weapons.



      Replace the Carbon used in the smelting and forging with Carbon-11, which has a half-life of about 20 minutes, but apply a stasis spell to the carbon to keep it from decaying. This could be done by a magic-user placed at the gates, watching for the ox carts filled with coal or charcoal.



      The incorruptible smiths smelt the iron and forge the swords with the Carbon-11. It works in the forge the same way. The strength is tested, and the swords are pronounced excellent. They get the martensite profile just right. The swords are deployed to the troops. They work perfectly during training. Against other foes, they work as expected -- they are sharp and subtle, yielding to glancing blows, yet slicing through armor and bone. But -- when the critical battle starts, remove the stasis spell. The swords and armor will quickly become weakened as the carbon turns to boron and the crystal structure breaks down.



      There may also be a benefit from the positron radiation emitted by the iron after the stasis is released.






      share|improve this answer

















      • 2




        In medieval times, the carbon used in smelting and forging came from the coal being used to provide the heat. It would take one heck of a complicated stasis spell to permit coal to burn without letting it decay radioactively.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago










      • It could be a simpler spell, since it need affect only the nuclus and could leave the electrons to wander at will.
        – cmm
        1 hour ago














      5












      5








      5






      Use a STASIS spell to alter the supply chain, and later remove the spell to destroy the weapons.



      Replace the Carbon used in the smelting and forging with Carbon-11, which has a half-life of about 20 minutes, but apply a stasis spell to the carbon to keep it from decaying. This could be done by a magic-user placed at the gates, watching for the ox carts filled with coal or charcoal.



      The incorruptible smiths smelt the iron and forge the swords with the Carbon-11. It works in the forge the same way. The strength is tested, and the swords are pronounced excellent. They get the martensite profile just right. The swords are deployed to the troops. They work perfectly during training. Against other foes, they work as expected -- they are sharp and subtle, yielding to glancing blows, yet slicing through armor and bone. But -- when the critical battle starts, remove the stasis spell. The swords and armor will quickly become weakened as the carbon turns to boron and the crystal structure breaks down.



      There may also be a benefit from the positron radiation emitted by the iron after the stasis is released.






      share|improve this answer












      Use a STASIS spell to alter the supply chain, and later remove the spell to destroy the weapons.



      Replace the Carbon used in the smelting and forging with Carbon-11, which has a half-life of about 20 minutes, but apply a stasis spell to the carbon to keep it from decaying. This could be done by a magic-user placed at the gates, watching for the ox carts filled with coal or charcoal.



      The incorruptible smiths smelt the iron and forge the swords with the Carbon-11. It works in the forge the same way. The strength is tested, and the swords are pronounced excellent. They get the martensite profile just right. The swords are deployed to the troops. They work perfectly during training. Against other foes, they work as expected -- they are sharp and subtle, yielding to glancing blows, yet slicing through armor and bone. But -- when the critical battle starts, remove the stasis spell. The swords and armor will quickly become weakened as the carbon turns to boron and the crystal structure breaks down.



      There may also be a benefit from the positron radiation emitted by the iron after the stasis is released.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 11 hours ago









      cmmcmm

      65928




      65928








      • 2




        In medieval times, the carbon used in smelting and forging came from the coal being used to provide the heat. It would take one heck of a complicated stasis spell to permit coal to burn without letting it decay radioactively.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago










      • It could be a simpler spell, since it need affect only the nuclus and could leave the electrons to wander at will.
        – cmm
        1 hour ago














      • 2




        In medieval times, the carbon used in smelting and forging came from the coal being used to provide the heat. It would take one heck of a complicated stasis spell to permit coal to burn without letting it decay radioactively.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago










      • It could be a simpler spell, since it need affect only the nuclus and could leave the electrons to wander at will.
        – cmm
        1 hour ago








      2




      2




      In medieval times, the carbon used in smelting and forging came from the coal being used to provide the heat. It would take one heck of a complicated stasis spell to permit coal to burn without letting it decay radioactively.
      – Mark
      2 hours ago




      In medieval times, the carbon used in smelting and forging came from the coal being used to provide the heat. It would take one heck of a complicated stasis spell to permit coal to burn without letting it decay radioactively.
      – Mark
      2 hours ago












      It could be a simpler spell, since it need affect only the nuclus and could leave the electrons to wander at will.
      – cmm
      1 hour ago




      It could be a simpler spell, since it need affect only the nuclus and could leave the electrons to wander at will.
      – cmm
      1 hour ago











      3














      Given the answer of Willk, it appears to be unlikely to manipulate the process without the smith noticing it. If you don't want to use magic directly, use something similar instead: Alchemy.



      Some mixture has been used for the iron which takes over time with incrementing effect over days or weeks. The initiator could be the heat applied in the forge or the water to cool it off - which means the mixture could be applied even earlier. It would render the metal brittle until it unexpectedly breaks, but given the progress rate it would occur quite rapidly. The blacksmith could not notice anything because the effect is near non-existent in the first days or weeks.



      The process wouldn't require some form of "intelligence" which magic would usually contain (do effect x when y is triggered, but not z). It would rather be a fictional chemical process. Maybe something in the real world exists which does something similar or works similarly.






      share|improve this answer





















      • I wouldn't know how to create something like this without the biochemist in my game telling me that what I'm saying is not possible. If something like this exists in the real world, this definitely will be accepted as the answer, thanks.
        – NewGM
        10 hours ago










      • Does your biochemist allow you to have rust monsters?
        – Alex H.
        9 hours ago










      • I'm not aware of anything that would work on iron. Mercury would work just fine for damaging aluminum swords, but aluminum is a lousy material for making swords out of.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago
















      3














      Given the answer of Willk, it appears to be unlikely to manipulate the process without the smith noticing it. If you don't want to use magic directly, use something similar instead: Alchemy.



      Some mixture has been used for the iron which takes over time with incrementing effect over days or weeks. The initiator could be the heat applied in the forge or the water to cool it off - which means the mixture could be applied even earlier. It would render the metal brittle until it unexpectedly breaks, but given the progress rate it would occur quite rapidly. The blacksmith could not notice anything because the effect is near non-existent in the first days or weeks.



      The process wouldn't require some form of "intelligence" which magic would usually contain (do effect x when y is triggered, but not z). It would rather be a fictional chemical process. Maybe something in the real world exists which does something similar or works similarly.






      share|improve this answer





















      • I wouldn't know how to create something like this without the biochemist in my game telling me that what I'm saying is not possible. If something like this exists in the real world, this definitely will be accepted as the answer, thanks.
        – NewGM
        10 hours ago










      • Does your biochemist allow you to have rust monsters?
        – Alex H.
        9 hours ago










      • I'm not aware of anything that would work on iron. Mercury would work just fine for damaging aluminum swords, but aluminum is a lousy material for making swords out of.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago














      3












      3








      3






      Given the answer of Willk, it appears to be unlikely to manipulate the process without the smith noticing it. If you don't want to use magic directly, use something similar instead: Alchemy.



      Some mixture has been used for the iron which takes over time with incrementing effect over days or weeks. The initiator could be the heat applied in the forge or the water to cool it off - which means the mixture could be applied even earlier. It would render the metal brittle until it unexpectedly breaks, but given the progress rate it would occur quite rapidly. The blacksmith could not notice anything because the effect is near non-existent in the first days or weeks.



      The process wouldn't require some form of "intelligence" which magic would usually contain (do effect x when y is triggered, but not z). It would rather be a fictional chemical process. Maybe something in the real world exists which does something similar or works similarly.






      share|improve this answer












      Given the answer of Willk, it appears to be unlikely to manipulate the process without the smith noticing it. If you don't want to use magic directly, use something similar instead: Alchemy.



      Some mixture has been used for the iron which takes over time with incrementing effect over days or weeks. The initiator could be the heat applied in the forge or the water to cool it off - which means the mixture could be applied even earlier. It would render the metal brittle until it unexpectedly breaks, but given the progress rate it would occur quite rapidly. The blacksmith could not notice anything because the effect is near non-existent in the first days or weeks.



      The process wouldn't require some form of "intelligence" which magic would usually contain (do effect x when y is triggered, but not z). It would rather be a fictional chemical process. Maybe something in the real world exists which does something similar or works similarly.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 20 hours ago









      BattleBattle

      75111




      75111












      • I wouldn't know how to create something like this without the biochemist in my game telling me that what I'm saying is not possible. If something like this exists in the real world, this definitely will be accepted as the answer, thanks.
        – NewGM
        10 hours ago










      • Does your biochemist allow you to have rust monsters?
        – Alex H.
        9 hours ago










      • I'm not aware of anything that would work on iron. Mercury would work just fine for damaging aluminum swords, but aluminum is a lousy material for making swords out of.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago


















      • I wouldn't know how to create something like this without the biochemist in my game telling me that what I'm saying is not possible. If something like this exists in the real world, this definitely will be accepted as the answer, thanks.
        – NewGM
        10 hours ago










      • Does your biochemist allow you to have rust monsters?
        – Alex H.
        9 hours ago










      • I'm not aware of anything that would work on iron. Mercury would work just fine for damaging aluminum swords, but aluminum is a lousy material for making swords out of.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago
















      I wouldn't know how to create something like this without the biochemist in my game telling me that what I'm saying is not possible. If something like this exists in the real world, this definitely will be accepted as the answer, thanks.
      – NewGM
      10 hours ago




      I wouldn't know how to create something like this without the biochemist in my game telling me that what I'm saying is not possible. If something like this exists in the real world, this definitely will be accepted as the answer, thanks.
      – NewGM
      10 hours ago












      Does your biochemist allow you to have rust monsters?
      – Alex H.
      9 hours ago




      Does your biochemist allow you to have rust monsters?
      – Alex H.
      9 hours ago












      I'm not aware of anything that would work on iron. Mercury would work just fine for damaging aluminum swords, but aluminum is a lousy material for making swords out of.
      – Mark
      2 hours ago




      I'm not aware of anything that would work on iron. Mercury would work just fine for damaging aluminum swords, but aluminum is a lousy material for making swords out of.
      – Mark
      2 hours ago











      3














      The blacksmiths use a very sophisticated technique to produce their legendary swords that requires repeated forging and cooling. This produces a very special flexible and durable but also very sharp steel....
      Unbeknownst to them, the process requires certain trace elements to be present in the ore,
      and they get this (or more likely wootz steel made from this) special ore shipped from a neighboring country.



      The adversary manages to capture some of these shipments and replace it with wootz steel from a different mine. To the blacksmiths everything looks just the same, but the swords are too brittle now. No one understands what has happened.



      Note that this has a precedent in human history: There is a hypothesis that Damascus steel got its very special properties from the presence of trace metals in the ore combined with a special manufacturing process. At some point in history the blacksmiths lost the ability to reproduce that steel and this might be because the respective mines in India were exhausted.



      Wikipedia: Damascus steel



      Reibold et al., Carbon Nanotubes in ancient Damascus sabre (2006), Nature 444, 286






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Soeren D. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.


















      • I can see this working with my setting, I'll consider it. Thanks.
        – NewGM
        10 hours ago










      • You could get a believable drop from exceptional swords to average swords this way, but a drop from "exceptional" to "defective" would be noticed during the forging process.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago
















      3














      The blacksmiths use a very sophisticated technique to produce their legendary swords that requires repeated forging and cooling. This produces a very special flexible and durable but also very sharp steel....
      Unbeknownst to them, the process requires certain trace elements to be present in the ore,
      and they get this (or more likely wootz steel made from this) special ore shipped from a neighboring country.



      The adversary manages to capture some of these shipments and replace it with wootz steel from a different mine. To the blacksmiths everything looks just the same, but the swords are too brittle now. No one understands what has happened.



      Note that this has a precedent in human history: There is a hypothesis that Damascus steel got its very special properties from the presence of trace metals in the ore combined with a special manufacturing process. At some point in history the blacksmiths lost the ability to reproduce that steel and this might be because the respective mines in India were exhausted.



      Wikipedia: Damascus steel



      Reibold et al., Carbon Nanotubes in ancient Damascus sabre (2006), Nature 444, 286






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Soeren D. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.


















      • I can see this working with my setting, I'll consider it. Thanks.
        – NewGM
        10 hours ago










      • You could get a believable drop from exceptional swords to average swords this way, but a drop from "exceptional" to "defective" would be noticed during the forging process.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago














      3












      3








      3






      The blacksmiths use a very sophisticated technique to produce their legendary swords that requires repeated forging and cooling. This produces a very special flexible and durable but also very sharp steel....
      Unbeknownst to them, the process requires certain trace elements to be present in the ore,
      and they get this (or more likely wootz steel made from this) special ore shipped from a neighboring country.



      The adversary manages to capture some of these shipments and replace it with wootz steel from a different mine. To the blacksmiths everything looks just the same, but the swords are too brittle now. No one understands what has happened.



      Note that this has a precedent in human history: There is a hypothesis that Damascus steel got its very special properties from the presence of trace metals in the ore combined with a special manufacturing process. At some point in history the blacksmiths lost the ability to reproduce that steel and this might be because the respective mines in India were exhausted.



      Wikipedia: Damascus steel



      Reibold et al., Carbon Nanotubes in ancient Damascus sabre (2006), Nature 444, 286






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Soeren D. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      The blacksmiths use a very sophisticated technique to produce their legendary swords that requires repeated forging and cooling. This produces a very special flexible and durable but also very sharp steel....
      Unbeknownst to them, the process requires certain trace elements to be present in the ore,
      and they get this (or more likely wootz steel made from this) special ore shipped from a neighboring country.



      The adversary manages to capture some of these shipments and replace it with wootz steel from a different mine. To the blacksmiths everything looks just the same, but the swords are too brittle now. No one understands what has happened.



      Note that this has a precedent in human history: There is a hypothesis that Damascus steel got its very special properties from the presence of trace metals in the ore combined with a special manufacturing process. At some point in history the blacksmiths lost the ability to reproduce that steel and this might be because the respective mines in India were exhausted.



      Wikipedia: Damascus steel



      Reibold et al., Carbon Nanotubes in ancient Damascus sabre (2006), Nature 444, 286







      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Soeren D. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer






      New contributor




      Soeren D. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      answered 12 hours ago









      Soeren D.Soeren D.

      311




      311




      New contributor




      Soeren D. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.





      New contributor





      Soeren D. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      Soeren D. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.












      • I can see this working with my setting, I'll consider it. Thanks.
        – NewGM
        10 hours ago










      • You could get a believable drop from exceptional swords to average swords this way, but a drop from "exceptional" to "defective" would be noticed during the forging process.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago


















      • I can see this working with my setting, I'll consider it. Thanks.
        – NewGM
        10 hours ago










      • You could get a believable drop from exceptional swords to average swords this way, but a drop from "exceptional" to "defective" would be noticed during the forging process.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago
















      I can see this working with my setting, I'll consider it. Thanks.
      – NewGM
      10 hours ago




      I can see this working with my setting, I'll consider it. Thanks.
      – NewGM
      10 hours ago












      You could get a believable drop from exceptional swords to average swords this way, but a drop from "exceptional" to "defective" would be noticed during the forging process.
      – Mark
      2 hours ago




      You could get a believable drop from exceptional swords to average swords this way, but a drop from "exceptional" to "defective" would be noticed during the forging process.
      – Mark
      2 hours ago











      3














      The saboteurs entered the blacksmiths guild. With some help they ascended in ranks, becoming the guild masters. They transformed the guild in a company with employed blacksmiths. They added a huge bureaucratic top-layer: Accounting, human resources, quality control, sales, marketing, R&D, supply chain management, legal and controlling. The blacksmiths got gradually replaced with inexperienced workers. The work got compartmentalized. As a result workers are unable to understand the entire organization. Then they started with quality degradation: Controlling argued that the contracted quality could still be meet while introducing inferior raw materials (iron ore rich in phosphor and sulfur). R&D had is scope changed to focus on lowering costs. Supply chain management squeezed every penny from the suppliers, resulting in raw material degradation. Legal sued the local news herald when they mocked the inferior quality.



      When the city council became concerned about the degrading quality sabotage got further.



      The saboteurs argued that city help is needed as competing cities are advancing in iron processing. They asked for import tariffs and city subventions and got them. They introduced a city-financed institute for advancement in iron processing. The council pressed the city council to force independent manufacturers into the iron conglomerate. The blacksmith school got incorporated into the iron institute and replaced by cheap least minimum training. The institute declared that the brittle iron weapons/armor parts are state of the art, opposing opinions got suppressed by libel charges and by media campaigns, accusing them to be non-patriotic.



      In the end the entire iron processing ability of the city got corrupted. Since nobody realizes the dimension of the degradation it is unlikely that the cities iron processing ability will ever raise to past quality.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 4




        HR, R&D, corporate, etc. in middle age?
        – L.Dutch
        16 hours ago






      • 6




        It sounds like something between Orwell's "Animal Farm" and the revolutionary claims of that peasant in "Monthy Python and the Holy Grail".
        – Rekesoft
        15 hours ago










      • @L.Dutch The first recognizable corporations were formed in the middle ages. If memory serves, the first one was to develop a system of dams for harnessing water power for milling. Blacksmithing actually lends itself to this because, in spite of modern stereotypes, medieval smithing of is not really solo occupation - it takes a staff to keep the smithy functioning at peak capacity.
        – pojo-guy
        12 hours ago








      • 2




        @pojo-guy, I doubt medieval corporations had HR, accounting and all the circus..
        – L.Dutch
        11 hours ago






      • 1




        @pojo-guy The detailed organization can end at shop level, with each smith responsible for the smith's shop. It's useful to have some sort of guild structure above that, but each blacksmith will be an independent business and will know what's going out of the shop. BTW, the "cheap on-the-job learning" is termed "apprenticeship", and is the standard way someone would learn to be a smith in those times. Real blacksmiths would sound the alarm on quality degradation, so it could not be done in any way quietly.
        – David Thornley
        10 hours ago
















      3














      The saboteurs entered the blacksmiths guild. With some help they ascended in ranks, becoming the guild masters. They transformed the guild in a company with employed blacksmiths. They added a huge bureaucratic top-layer: Accounting, human resources, quality control, sales, marketing, R&D, supply chain management, legal and controlling. The blacksmiths got gradually replaced with inexperienced workers. The work got compartmentalized. As a result workers are unable to understand the entire organization. Then they started with quality degradation: Controlling argued that the contracted quality could still be meet while introducing inferior raw materials (iron ore rich in phosphor and sulfur). R&D had is scope changed to focus on lowering costs. Supply chain management squeezed every penny from the suppliers, resulting in raw material degradation. Legal sued the local news herald when they mocked the inferior quality.



      When the city council became concerned about the degrading quality sabotage got further.



      The saboteurs argued that city help is needed as competing cities are advancing in iron processing. They asked for import tariffs and city subventions and got them. They introduced a city-financed institute for advancement in iron processing. The council pressed the city council to force independent manufacturers into the iron conglomerate. The blacksmith school got incorporated into the iron institute and replaced by cheap least minimum training. The institute declared that the brittle iron weapons/armor parts are state of the art, opposing opinions got suppressed by libel charges and by media campaigns, accusing them to be non-patriotic.



      In the end the entire iron processing ability of the city got corrupted. Since nobody realizes the dimension of the degradation it is unlikely that the cities iron processing ability will ever raise to past quality.






      share|improve this answer



















      • 4




        HR, R&D, corporate, etc. in middle age?
        – L.Dutch
        16 hours ago






      • 6




        It sounds like something between Orwell's "Animal Farm" and the revolutionary claims of that peasant in "Monthy Python and the Holy Grail".
        – Rekesoft
        15 hours ago










      • @L.Dutch The first recognizable corporations were formed in the middle ages. If memory serves, the first one was to develop a system of dams for harnessing water power for milling. Blacksmithing actually lends itself to this because, in spite of modern stereotypes, medieval smithing of is not really solo occupation - it takes a staff to keep the smithy functioning at peak capacity.
        – pojo-guy
        12 hours ago








      • 2




        @pojo-guy, I doubt medieval corporations had HR, accounting and all the circus..
        – L.Dutch
        11 hours ago






      • 1




        @pojo-guy The detailed organization can end at shop level, with each smith responsible for the smith's shop. It's useful to have some sort of guild structure above that, but each blacksmith will be an independent business and will know what's going out of the shop. BTW, the "cheap on-the-job learning" is termed "apprenticeship", and is the standard way someone would learn to be a smith in those times. Real blacksmiths would sound the alarm on quality degradation, so it could not be done in any way quietly.
        – David Thornley
        10 hours ago














      3












      3








      3






      The saboteurs entered the blacksmiths guild. With some help they ascended in ranks, becoming the guild masters. They transformed the guild in a company with employed blacksmiths. They added a huge bureaucratic top-layer: Accounting, human resources, quality control, sales, marketing, R&D, supply chain management, legal and controlling. The blacksmiths got gradually replaced with inexperienced workers. The work got compartmentalized. As a result workers are unable to understand the entire organization. Then they started with quality degradation: Controlling argued that the contracted quality could still be meet while introducing inferior raw materials (iron ore rich in phosphor and sulfur). R&D had is scope changed to focus on lowering costs. Supply chain management squeezed every penny from the suppliers, resulting in raw material degradation. Legal sued the local news herald when they mocked the inferior quality.



      When the city council became concerned about the degrading quality sabotage got further.



      The saboteurs argued that city help is needed as competing cities are advancing in iron processing. They asked for import tariffs and city subventions and got them. They introduced a city-financed institute for advancement in iron processing. The council pressed the city council to force independent manufacturers into the iron conglomerate. The blacksmith school got incorporated into the iron institute and replaced by cheap least minimum training. The institute declared that the brittle iron weapons/armor parts are state of the art, opposing opinions got suppressed by libel charges and by media campaigns, accusing them to be non-patriotic.



      In the end the entire iron processing ability of the city got corrupted. Since nobody realizes the dimension of the degradation it is unlikely that the cities iron processing ability will ever raise to past quality.






      share|improve this answer














      The saboteurs entered the blacksmiths guild. With some help they ascended in ranks, becoming the guild masters. They transformed the guild in a company with employed blacksmiths. They added a huge bureaucratic top-layer: Accounting, human resources, quality control, sales, marketing, R&D, supply chain management, legal and controlling. The blacksmiths got gradually replaced with inexperienced workers. The work got compartmentalized. As a result workers are unable to understand the entire organization. Then they started with quality degradation: Controlling argued that the contracted quality could still be meet while introducing inferior raw materials (iron ore rich in phosphor and sulfur). R&D had is scope changed to focus on lowering costs. Supply chain management squeezed every penny from the suppliers, resulting in raw material degradation. Legal sued the local news herald when they mocked the inferior quality.



      When the city council became concerned about the degrading quality sabotage got further.



      The saboteurs argued that city help is needed as competing cities are advancing in iron processing. They asked for import tariffs and city subventions and got them. They introduced a city-financed institute for advancement in iron processing. The council pressed the city council to force independent manufacturers into the iron conglomerate. The blacksmith school got incorporated into the iron institute and replaced by cheap least minimum training. The institute declared that the brittle iron weapons/armor parts are state of the art, opposing opinions got suppressed by libel charges and by media campaigns, accusing them to be non-patriotic.



      In the end the entire iron processing ability of the city got corrupted. Since nobody realizes the dimension of the degradation it is unlikely that the cities iron processing ability will ever raise to past quality.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 10 hours ago

























      answered 16 hours ago









      MartinMartin

      4991410




      4991410








      • 4




        HR, R&D, corporate, etc. in middle age?
        – L.Dutch
        16 hours ago






      • 6




        It sounds like something between Orwell's "Animal Farm" and the revolutionary claims of that peasant in "Monthy Python and the Holy Grail".
        – Rekesoft
        15 hours ago










      • @L.Dutch The first recognizable corporations were formed in the middle ages. If memory serves, the first one was to develop a system of dams for harnessing water power for milling. Blacksmithing actually lends itself to this because, in spite of modern stereotypes, medieval smithing of is not really solo occupation - it takes a staff to keep the smithy functioning at peak capacity.
        – pojo-guy
        12 hours ago








      • 2




        @pojo-guy, I doubt medieval corporations had HR, accounting and all the circus..
        – L.Dutch
        11 hours ago






      • 1




        @pojo-guy The detailed organization can end at shop level, with each smith responsible for the smith's shop. It's useful to have some sort of guild structure above that, but each blacksmith will be an independent business and will know what's going out of the shop. BTW, the "cheap on-the-job learning" is termed "apprenticeship", and is the standard way someone would learn to be a smith in those times. Real blacksmiths would sound the alarm on quality degradation, so it could not be done in any way quietly.
        – David Thornley
        10 hours ago














      • 4




        HR, R&D, corporate, etc. in middle age?
        – L.Dutch
        16 hours ago






      • 6




        It sounds like something between Orwell's "Animal Farm" and the revolutionary claims of that peasant in "Monthy Python and the Holy Grail".
        – Rekesoft
        15 hours ago










      • @L.Dutch The first recognizable corporations were formed in the middle ages. If memory serves, the first one was to develop a system of dams for harnessing water power for milling. Blacksmithing actually lends itself to this because, in spite of modern stereotypes, medieval smithing of is not really solo occupation - it takes a staff to keep the smithy functioning at peak capacity.
        – pojo-guy
        12 hours ago








      • 2




        @pojo-guy, I doubt medieval corporations had HR, accounting and all the circus..
        – L.Dutch
        11 hours ago






      • 1




        @pojo-guy The detailed organization can end at shop level, with each smith responsible for the smith's shop. It's useful to have some sort of guild structure above that, but each blacksmith will be an independent business and will know what's going out of the shop. BTW, the "cheap on-the-job learning" is termed "apprenticeship", and is the standard way someone would learn to be a smith in those times. Real blacksmiths would sound the alarm on quality degradation, so it could not be done in any way quietly.
        – David Thornley
        10 hours ago








      4




      4




      HR, R&D, corporate, etc. in middle age?
      – L.Dutch
      16 hours ago




      HR, R&D, corporate, etc. in middle age?
      – L.Dutch
      16 hours ago




      6




      6




      It sounds like something between Orwell's "Animal Farm" and the revolutionary claims of that peasant in "Monthy Python and the Holy Grail".
      – Rekesoft
      15 hours ago




      It sounds like something between Orwell's "Animal Farm" and the revolutionary claims of that peasant in "Monthy Python and the Holy Grail".
      – Rekesoft
      15 hours ago












      @L.Dutch The first recognizable corporations were formed in the middle ages. If memory serves, the first one was to develop a system of dams for harnessing water power for milling. Blacksmithing actually lends itself to this because, in spite of modern stereotypes, medieval smithing of is not really solo occupation - it takes a staff to keep the smithy functioning at peak capacity.
      – pojo-guy
      12 hours ago






      @L.Dutch The first recognizable corporations were formed in the middle ages. If memory serves, the first one was to develop a system of dams for harnessing water power for milling. Blacksmithing actually lends itself to this because, in spite of modern stereotypes, medieval smithing of is not really solo occupation - it takes a staff to keep the smithy functioning at peak capacity.
      – pojo-guy
      12 hours ago






      2




      2




      @pojo-guy, I doubt medieval corporations had HR, accounting and all the circus..
      – L.Dutch
      11 hours ago




      @pojo-guy, I doubt medieval corporations had HR, accounting and all the circus..
      – L.Dutch
      11 hours ago




      1




      1




      @pojo-guy The detailed organization can end at shop level, with each smith responsible for the smith's shop. It's useful to have some sort of guild structure above that, but each blacksmith will be an independent business and will know what's going out of the shop. BTW, the "cheap on-the-job learning" is termed "apprenticeship", and is the standard way someone would learn to be a smith in those times. Real blacksmiths would sound the alarm on quality degradation, so it could not be done in any way quietly.
      – David Thornley
      10 hours ago




      @pojo-guy The detailed organization can end at shop level, with each smith responsible for the smith's shop. It's useful to have some sort of guild structure above that, but each blacksmith will be an independent business and will know what's going out of the shop. BTW, the "cheap on-the-job learning" is termed "apprenticeship", and is the standard way someone would learn to be a smith in those times. Real blacksmiths would sound the alarm on quality degradation, so it could not be done in any way quietly.
      – David Thornley
      10 hours ago











      3














      I'm assuming from your username and the setting details that you're running some sort of D&D or D&D-adjacent system. There's always one answer to that guy who got full plate before he should: the rust monster.



      Rust monsters have strong corrosive materials in their antennae, and they're flimsy enough that an enterprising hostile kingdom or well funded crime syndicate could capture, breed, and harvest them.



      Your saboteurs will need fairly lengthy access to the caravan to pull this off, but if the arms are coated in some kind of clear coat (varnish, lacquer, whatever - armor should come treated from the forge, but the weapons themselves may or may not be and would be the responsibility of the saboteur - shouldn't raise any alarms to find them coated) and stored with powdered rust monster antennae (in the sheath, on resin paper wrapping the armor, whatever), the arms themselves will:




      1. Leave the blacksmith in good condition

      2. Survive transit reasonably well, depending on the care taken by the saboteurs

      3. Perform well in their initial inspection, if treated gently enough

      4. Fail faster in the field if they were used in practice, but should fail eventually if used hard enough in battle regardless.

      5. Show signs that look like water damage that could be blamed on an incompetent carman (wagon driver), marshal (officer in charge of transport), or lighterman (ship-to-shore ferryman)






      share|improve this answer





















      • You are correct this is in a D&D campaign. I'll have this in mind, thank you.
        – NewGM
        6 hours ago










      • The usual protective coating for iron is oil.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago
















      3














      I'm assuming from your username and the setting details that you're running some sort of D&D or D&D-adjacent system. There's always one answer to that guy who got full plate before he should: the rust monster.



      Rust monsters have strong corrosive materials in their antennae, and they're flimsy enough that an enterprising hostile kingdom or well funded crime syndicate could capture, breed, and harvest them.



      Your saboteurs will need fairly lengthy access to the caravan to pull this off, but if the arms are coated in some kind of clear coat (varnish, lacquer, whatever - armor should come treated from the forge, but the weapons themselves may or may not be and would be the responsibility of the saboteur - shouldn't raise any alarms to find them coated) and stored with powdered rust monster antennae (in the sheath, on resin paper wrapping the armor, whatever), the arms themselves will:




      1. Leave the blacksmith in good condition

      2. Survive transit reasonably well, depending on the care taken by the saboteurs

      3. Perform well in their initial inspection, if treated gently enough

      4. Fail faster in the field if they were used in practice, but should fail eventually if used hard enough in battle regardless.

      5. Show signs that look like water damage that could be blamed on an incompetent carman (wagon driver), marshal (officer in charge of transport), or lighterman (ship-to-shore ferryman)






      share|improve this answer





















      • You are correct this is in a D&D campaign. I'll have this in mind, thank you.
        – NewGM
        6 hours ago










      • The usual protective coating for iron is oil.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago














      3












      3








      3






      I'm assuming from your username and the setting details that you're running some sort of D&D or D&D-adjacent system. There's always one answer to that guy who got full plate before he should: the rust monster.



      Rust monsters have strong corrosive materials in their antennae, and they're flimsy enough that an enterprising hostile kingdom or well funded crime syndicate could capture, breed, and harvest them.



      Your saboteurs will need fairly lengthy access to the caravan to pull this off, but if the arms are coated in some kind of clear coat (varnish, lacquer, whatever - armor should come treated from the forge, but the weapons themselves may or may not be and would be the responsibility of the saboteur - shouldn't raise any alarms to find them coated) and stored with powdered rust monster antennae (in the sheath, on resin paper wrapping the armor, whatever), the arms themselves will:




      1. Leave the blacksmith in good condition

      2. Survive transit reasonably well, depending on the care taken by the saboteurs

      3. Perform well in their initial inspection, if treated gently enough

      4. Fail faster in the field if they were used in practice, but should fail eventually if used hard enough in battle regardless.

      5. Show signs that look like water damage that could be blamed on an incompetent carman (wagon driver), marshal (officer in charge of transport), or lighterman (ship-to-shore ferryman)






      share|improve this answer












      I'm assuming from your username and the setting details that you're running some sort of D&D or D&D-adjacent system. There's always one answer to that guy who got full plate before he should: the rust monster.



      Rust monsters have strong corrosive materials in their antennae, and they're flimsy enough that an enterprising hostile kingdom or well funded crime syndicate could capture, breed, and harvest them.



      Your saboteurs will need fairly lengthy access to the caravan to pull this off, but if the arms are coated in some kind of clear coat (varnish, lacquer, whatever - armor should come treated from the forge, but the weapons themselves may or may not be and would be the responsibility of the saboteur - shouldn't raise any alarms to find them coated) and stored with powdered rust monster antennae (in the sheath, on resin paper wrapping the armor, whatever), the arms themselves will:




      1. Leave the blacksmith in good condition

      2. Survive transit reasonably well, depending on the care taken by the saboteurs

      3. Perform well in their initial inspection, if treated gently enough

      4. Fail faster in the field if they were used in practice, but should fail eventually if used hard enough in battle regardless.

      5. Show signs that look like water damage that could be blamed on an incompetent carman (wagon driver), marshal (officer in charge of transport), or lighterman (ship-to-shore ferryman)







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 6 hours ago









      Alex H.Alex H.

      32913




      32913












      • You are correct this is in a D&D campaign. I'll have this in mind, thank you.
        – NewGM
        6 hours ago










      • The usual protective coating for iron is oil.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago


















      • You are correct this is in a D&D campaign. I'll have this in mind, thank you.
        – NewGM
        6 hours ago










      • The usual protective coating for iron is oil.
        – Mark
        2 hours ago
















      You are correct this is in a D&D campaign. I'll have this in mind, thank you.
      – NewGM
      6 hours ago




      You are correct this is in a D&D campaign. I'll have this in mind, thank you.
      – NewGM
      6 hours ago












      The usual protective coating for iron is oil.
      – Mark
      2 hours ago




      The usual protective coating for iron is oil.
      – Mark
      2 hours ago











      2














      One option could be a poor quality ore the blacksmith was working with. If the ore had an excess of one metal or another to give it unfavorable qualities, then it may be possible the final product would fail. If it had excessive amounts of lead, tin or copper, the weapon would be too soft and deform easily. If it contained excessive amounts of nickel, cobalt or tungsten, the armor would be too strong, thus brittle and may crack upon receiving a blow.



      Now, any good blacksmith would recognize that the metal is not tuning out as expected, however, if he had several apprentices, they may not recognize the poor materials and force the piece into the desired form despite the material not wanting to play






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Sonvar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.























        2














        One option could be a poor quality ore the blacksmith was working with. If the ore had an excess of one metal or another to give it unfavorable qualities, then it may be possible the final product would fail. If it had excessive amounts of lead, tin or copper, the weapon would be too soft and deform easily. If it contained excessive amounts of nickel, cobalt or tungsten, the armor would be too strong, thus brittle and may crack upon receiving a blow.



        Now, any good blacksmith would recognize that the metal is not tuning out as expected, however, if he had several apprentices, they may not recognize the poor materials and force the piece into the desired form despite the material not wanting to play






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        Sonvar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





















          2












          2








          2






          One option could be a poor quality ore the blacksmith was working with. If the ore had an excess of one metal or another to give it unfavorable qualities, then it may be possible the final product would fail. If it had excessive amounts of lead, tin or copper, the weapon would be too soft and deform easily. If it contained excessive amounts of nickel, cobalt or tungsten, the armor would be too strong, thus brittle and may crack upon receiving a blow.



          Now, any good blacksmith would recognize that the metal is not tuning out as expected, however, if he had several apprentices, they may not recognize the poor materials and force the piece into the desired form despite the material not wanting to play






          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          Sonvar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          One option could be a poor quality ore the blacksmith was working with. If the ore had an excess of one metal or another to give it unfavorable qualities, then it may be possible the final product would fail. If it had excessive amounts of lead, tin or copper, the weapon would be too soft and deform easily. If it contained excessive amounts of nickel, cobalt or tungsten, the armor would be too strong, thus brittle and may crack upon receiving a blow.



          Now, any good blacksmith would recognize that the metal is not tuning out as expected, however, if he had several apprentices, they may not recognize the poor materials and force the piece into the desired form despite the material not wanting to play







          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          Sonvar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer






          New contributor




          Sonvar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          answered 22 hours ago









          SonvarSonvar

          3354




          3354




          New contributor




          Sonvar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





          New contributor





          Sonvar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          Sonvar is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.























              1














              The iron used to build everything (weapons and armors) could've been saboted by adding more carbon inside, before being sold to the blacksmith. If more than 2,11% of carbon is added to iron, it becomes steel and isn't as flexible as the iron. Then, it will break.



              But if you have magic in your world, why not think about another material than carbon added to iron, which degrade it slowly (for the blacksmith not notice it) and make weapons and armor bad quality faster (degradation appears after the first fight you said).






              share|improve this answer

















              • 5




                The problem with this solution is that the blacksmith would know instantly that the metal was bad. You're correct: up to 2% makes steel. Add just a bit too much carbon and you end up with pig iron --- strong but brittle. You can't add much more than that as I've read iron can only take so much carbon. A smith will Know, because the pig iron will literally crumble when he starts hammering it. He'll never be able to make a weapon from that.
                – elemtilas
                22 hours ago
















              1














              The iron used to build everything (weapons and armors) could've been saboted by adding more carbon inside, before being sold to the blacksmith. If more than 2,11% of carbon is added to iron, it becomes steel and isn't as flexible as the iron. Then, it will break.



              But if you have magic in your world, why not think about another material than carbon added to iron, which degrade it slowly (for the blacksmith not notice it) and make weapons and armor bad quality faster (degradation appears after the first fight you said).






              share|improve this answer

















              • 5




                The problem with this solution is that the blacksmith would know instantly that the metal was bad. You're correct: up to 2% makes steel. Add just a bit too much carbon and you end up with pig iron --- strong but brittle. You can't add much more than that as I've read iron can only take so much carbon. A smith will Know, because the pig iron will literally crumble when he starts hammering it. He'll never be able to make a weapon from that.
                – elemtilas
                22 hours ago














              1












              1








              1






              The iron used to build everything (weapons and armors) could've been saboted by adding more carbon inside, before being sold to the blacksmith. If more than 2,11% of carbon is added to iron, it becomes steel and isn't as flexible as the iron. Then, it will break.



              But if you have magic in your world, why not think about another material than carbon added to iron, which degrade it slowly (for the blacksmith not notice it) and make weapons and armor bad quality faster (degradation appears after the first fight you said).






              share|improve this answer












              The iron used to build everything (weapons and armors) could've been saboted by adding more carbon inside, before being sold to the blacksmith. If more than 2,11% of carbon is added to iron, it becomes steel and isn't as flexible as the iron. Then, it will break.



              But if you have magic in your world, why not think about another material than carbon added to iron, which degrade it slowly (for the blacksmith not notice it) and make weapons and armor bad quality faster (degradation appears after the first fight you said).







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 22 hours ago









              gaelgael

              1216




              1216








              • 5




                The problem with this solution is that the blacksmith would know instantly that the metal was bad. You're correct: up to 2% makes steel. Add just a bit too much carbon and you end up with pig iron --- strong but brittle. You can't add much more than that as I've read iron can only take so much carbon. A smith will Know, because the pig iron will literally crumble when he starts hammering it. He'll never be able to make a weapon from that.
                – elemtilas
                22 hours ago














              • 5




                The problem with this solution is that the blacksmith would know instantly that the metal was bad. You're correct: up to 2% makes steel. Add just a bit too much carbon and you end up with pig iron --- strong but brittle. You can't add much more than that as I've read iron can only take so much carbon. A smith will Know, because the pig iron will literally crumble when he starts hammering it. He'll never be able to make a weapon from that.
                – elemtilas
                22 hours ago








              5




              5




              The problem with this solution is that the blacksmith would know instantly that the metal was bad. You're correct: up to 2% makes steel. Add just a bit too much carbon and you end up with pig iron --- strong but brittle. You can't add much more than that as I've read iron can only take so much carbon. A smith will Know, because the pig iron will literally crumble when he starts hammering it. He'll never be able to make a weapon from that.
              – elemtilas
              22 hours ago




              The problem with this solution is that the blacksmith would know instantly that the metal was bad. You're correct: up to 2% makes steel. Add just a bit too much carbon and you end up with pig iron --- strong but brittle. You can't add much more than that as I've read iron can only take so much carbon. A smith will Know, because the pig iron will literally crumble when he starts hammering it. He'll never be able to make a weapon from that.
              – elemtilas
              22 hours ago











              1














              Some techniques for differential hardening of blades (wherein the edge is very hard, while the core of the blade is more flexible to provide strength) involve the application of clay along the center of the blade before the final hardening. If your saboteurs tampered with this clay and changed its characteristics, it could lead to a blade that looked right, but was actually very fragile.



              There are quality control protocols that would catch the issue (most bladesmiths do a fairly rigorous bend test to determine the flexibility and strength of their blades), but if your smith is working past his capacity, those might fall by the wayside.






              share|improve this answer





















              • The characteristic of clay that matters is its insulating ability. I don't see how you could change this enough to make a difference while still having something that could be called "clay".
                – Mark
                2 hours ago
















              1














              Some techniques for differential hardening of blades (wherein the edge is very hard, while the core of the blade is more flexible to provide strength) involve the application of clay along the center of the blade before the final hardening. If your saboteurs tampered with this clay and changed its characteristics, it could lead to a blade that looked right, but was actually very fragile.



              There are quality control protocols that would catch the issue (most bladesmiths do a fairly rigorous bend test to determine the flexibility and strength of their blades), but if your smith is working past his capacity, those might fall by the wayside.






              share|improve this answer





















              • The characteristic of clay that matters is its insulating ability. I don't see how you could change this enough to make a difference while still having something that could be called "clay".
                – Mark
                2 hours ago














              1












              1








              1






              Some techniques for differential hardening of blades (wherein the edge is very hard, while the core of the blade is more flexible to provide strength) involve the application of clay along the center of the blade before the final hardening. If your saboteurs tampered with this clay and changed its characteristics, it could lead to a blade that looked right, but was actually very fragile.



              There are quality control protocols that would catch the issue (most bladesmiths do a fairly rigorous bend test to determine the flexibility and strength of their blades), but if your smith is working past his capacity, those might fall by the wayside.






              share|improve this answer












              Some techniques for differential hardening of blades (wherein the edge is very hard, while the core of the blade is more flexible to provide strength) involve the application of clay along the center of the blade before the final hardening. If your saboteurs tampered with this clay and changed its characteristics, it could lead to a blade that looked right, but was actually very fragile.



              There are quality control protocols that would catch the issue (most bladesmiths do a fairly rigorous bend test to determine the flexibility and strength of their blades), but if your smith is working past his capacity, those might fall by the wayside.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 9 hours ago









              G. B. RobinsonG. B. Robinson

              1977




              1977












              • The characteristic of clay that matters is its insulating ability. I don't see how you could change this enough to make a difference while still having something that could be called "clay".
                – Mark
                2 hours ago


















              • The characteristic of clay that matters is its insulating ability. I don't see how you could change this enough to make a difference while still having something that could be called "clay".
                – Mark
                2 hours ago
















              The characteristic of clay that matters is its insulating ability. I don't see how you could change this enough to make a difference while still having something that could be called "clay".
              – Mark
              2 hours ago




              The characteristic of clay that matters is its insulating ability. I don't see how you could change this enough to make a difference while still having something that could be called "clay".
              – Mark
              2 hours ago











              1














              Not the most effective way but an interesting mythological occurrence of this by Loki can be read in places like here https://norse-mythology.org/tales/loki-and-the-dwarves/



              The short version of this is Loki turned into a fly and distracted the dwarf who was working the bellows in an attempt to sabotage their attempts at crafting.



              Transforming into a fly might not be a reasonable method but unleashing a plague of rats/vermin/sickness on the workers at the smithy could slow down their production, cause them to cut corners and release shoddy work.






              share|improve this answer


























                1














                Not the most effective way but an interesting mythological occurrence of this by Loki can be read in places like here https://norse-mythology.org/tales/loki-and-the-dwarves/



                The short version of this is Loki turned into a fly and distracted the dwarf who was working the bellows in an attempt to sabotage their attempts at crafting.



                Transforming into a fly might not be a reasonable method but unleashing a plague of rats/vermin/sickness on the workers at the smithy could slow down their production, cause them to cut corners and release shoddy work.






                share|improve this answer
























                  1












                  1








                  1






                  Not the most effective way but an interesting mythological occurrence of this by Loki can be read in places like here https://norse-mythology.org/tales/loki-and-the-dwarves/



                  The short version of this is Loki turned into a fly and distracted the dwarf who was working the bellows in an attempt to sabotage their attempts at crafting.



                  Transforming into a fly might not be a reasonable method but unleashing a plague of rats/vermin/sickness on the workers at the smithy could slow down their production, cause them to cut corners and release shoddy work.






                  share|improve this answer












                  Not the most effective way but an interesting mythological occurrence of this by Loki can be read in places like here https://norse-mythology.org/tales/loki-and-the-dwarves/



                  The short version of this is Loki turned into a fly and distracted the dwarf who was working the bellows in an attempt to sabotage their attempts at crafting.



                  Transforming into a fly might not be a reasonable method but unleashing a plague of rats/vermin/sickness on the workers at the smithy could slow down their production, cause them to cut corners and release shoddy work.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 4 hours ago









                  TyphadoTyphado

                  333111




                  333111























                      1














                      Quench bath contamination leading to Stress Corrosion Cracking down the line



                      As other answers here indicate -- these smiths' reputations and livelihoods are on the line here, so their processes would be in good nick and unlikely to change suddenly, and they would likely notice issues with raw material changes, say to the ore, charcoal, or fluxes used. Furthermore, even if they didn't, proofing of the blades (acceptance testing) by the quartermaster would weed out blades that were, say, extremely cold short due to phosphorous contamination.



                      This means we need to get diabolical here, and look at the things a smith or quartermaster cannot see, or catch immediately with tests. In particular, preindustrial forging relied exclusively on static, water-cooled quenching and tempering processes, and these will leave traces of salts present in the quench bath on the blade as it is removed from the bath (simply from water boiling off upon contact with hot iron).



                      Normally, this isn't an issue, as the contents of most water sources aren't going leave behind anything that will cause serious trouble down the line. However, if the quench bath was "spiked" with something that was a potent promoter of Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) in carbon steels (carbonates may work, depending on their activity at or near body temperature) under mild conditions, this could effectively, yet insidiously, sabotage their efforts to produce quality blades.



                      As such a contaminated blade was handled and used, moisture from the environment that gets past whatever oiling is used to protect the blade from rusting would combine with the boiled-out SCC promoters in crevices in the weapon, such as at the blade-to-handle interface. Furthermore, such points would also be stress risers in the blade, and combined with residual stresses from forging and heat-treatment as well as the rigors of usage, this could lead to stresses at the risers exceeding the SCC critical stresses for the material. Finally, a well-kept sword is going to be in an environment that is only mildly corrosive (due to normal maintenance activity vs. being exposed to rain, blood, etc).



                      The end upshot would be swords that look fine, proof fine when received by the quartermaster, yet snap in half like twigs months or years later. A modern failure analysis would reveal that the broken sword was spiderwebbed with invisible yet lethal cracks in key spots, despite looking the part of a well-kept sword by any account chosen.






                      share|improve this answer





















                      • "carbonates may work" - Which carbonates are you talking about? A hand full of soda ash? Toss in a few TUMS? Doesn't matter?
                        – Mazura
                        2 hours ago










                      • Any residual salts from the quench bath are going to be removed the first time the sword is cleaned.
                        – Mark
                        1 hour ago
















                      1














                      Quench bath contamination leading to Stress Corrosion Cracking down the line



                      As other answers here indicate -- these smiths' reputations and livelihoods are on the line here, so their processes would be in good nick and unlikely to change suddenly, and they would likely notice issues with raw material changes, say to the ore, charcoal, or fluxes used. Furthermore, even if they didn't, proofing of the blades (acceptance testing) by the quartermaster would weed out blades that were, say, extremely cold short due to phosphorous contamination.



                      This means we need to get diabolical here, and look at the things a smith or quartermaster cannot see, or catch immediately with tests. In particular, preindustrial forging relied exclusively on static, water-cooled quenching and tempering processes, and these will leave traces of salts present in the quench bath on the blade as it is removed from the bath (simply from water boiling off upon contact with hot iron).



                      Normally, this isn't an issue, as the contents of most water sources aren't going leave behind anything that will cause serious trouble down the line. However, if the quench bath was "spiked" with something that was a potent promoter of Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) in carbon steels (carbonates may work, depending on their activity at or near body temperature) under mild conditions, this could effectively, yet insidiously, sabotage their efforts to produce quality blades.



                      As such a contaminated blade was handled and used, moisture from the environment that gets past whatever oiling is used to protect the blade from rusting would combine with the boiled-out SCC promoters in crevices in the weapon, such as at the blade-to-handle interface. Furthermore, such points would also be stress risers in the blade, and combined with residual stresses from forging and heat-treatment as well as the rigors of usage, this could lead to stresses at the risers exceeding the SCC critical stresses for the material. Finally, a well-kept sword is going to be in an environment that is only mildly corrosive (due to normal maintenance activity vs. being exposed to rain, blood, etc).



                      The end upshot would be swords that look fine, proof fine when received by the quartermaster, yet snap in half like twigs months or years later. A modern failure analysis would reveal that the broken sword was spiderwebbed with invisible yet lethal cracks in key spots, despite looking the part of a well-kept sword by any account chosen.






                      share|improve this answer





















                      • "carbonates may work" - Which carbonates are you talking about? A hand full of soda ash? Toss in a few TUMS? Doesn't matter?
                        – Mazura
                        2 hours ago










                      • Any residual salts from the quench bath are going to be removed the first time the sword is cleaned.
                        – Mark
                        1 hour ago














                      1












                      1








                      1






                      Quench bath contamination leading to Stress Corrosion Cracking down the line



                      As other answers here indicate -- these smiths' reputations and livelihoods are on the line here, so their processes would be in good nick and unlikely to change suddenly, and they would likely notice issues with raw material changes, say to the ore, charcoal, or fluxes used. Furthermore, even if they didn't, proofing of the blades (acceptance testing) by the quartermaster would weed out blades that were, say, extremely cold short due to phosphorous contamination.



                      This means we need to get diabolical here, and look at the things a smith or quartermaster cannot see, or catch immediately with tests. In particular, preindustrial forging relied exclusively on static, water-cooled quenching and tempering processes, and these will leave traces of salts present in the quench bath on the blade as it is removed from the bath (simply from water boiling off upon contact with hot iron).



                      Normally, this isn't an issue, as the contents of most water sources aren't going leave behind anything that will cause serious trouble down the line. However, if the quench bath was "spiked" with something that was a potent promoter of Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) in carbon steels (carbonates may work, depending on their activity at or near body temperature) under mild conditions, this could effectively, yet insidiously, sabotage their efforts to produce quality blades.



                      As such a contaminated blade was handled and used, moisture from the environment that gets past whatever oiling is used to protect the blade from rusting would combine with the boiled-out SCC promoters in crevices in the weapon, such as at the blade-to-handle interface. Furthermore, such points would also be stress risers in the blade, and combined with residual stresses from forging and heat-treatment as well as the rigors of usage, this could lead to stresses at the risers exceeding the SCC critical stresses for the material. Finally, a well-kept sword is going to be in an environment that is only mildly corrosive (due to normal maintenance activity vs. being exposed to rain, blood, etc).



                      The end upshot would be swords that look fine, proof fine when received by the quartermaster, yet snap in half like twigs months or years later. A modern failure analysis would reveal that the broken sword was spiderwebbed with invisible yet lethal cracks in key spots, despite looking the part of a well-kept sword by any account chosen.






                      share|improve this answer












                      Quench bath contamination leading to Stress Corrosion Cracking down the line



                      As other answers here indicate -- these smiths' reputations and livelihoods are on the line here, so their processes would be in good nick and unlikely to change suddenly, and they would likely notice issues with raw material changes, say to the ore, charcoal, or fluxes used. Furthermore, even if they didn't, proofing of the blades (acceptance testing) by the quartermaster would weed out blades that were, say, extremely cold short due to phosphorous contamination.



                      This means we need to get diabolical here, and look at the things a smith or quartermaster cannot see, or catch immediately with tests. In particular, preindustrial forging relied exclusively on static, water-cooled quenching and tempering processes, and these will leave traces of salts present in the quench bath on the blade as it is removed from the bath (simply from water boiling off upon contact with hot iron).



                      Normally, this isn't an issue, as the contents of most water sources aren't going leave behind anything that will cause serious trouble down the line. However, if the quench bath was "spiked" with something that was a potent promoter of Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) in carbon steels (carbonates may work, depending on their activity at or near body temperature) under mild conditions, this could effectively, yet insidiously, sabotage their efforts to produce quality blades.



                      As such a contaminated blade was handled and used, moisture from the environment that gets past whatever oiling is used to protect the blade from rusting would combine with the boiled-out SCC promoters in crevices in the weapon, such as at the blade-to-handle interface. Furthermore, such points would also be stress risers in the blade, and combined with residual stresses from forging and heat-treatment as well as the rigors of usage, this could lead to stresses at the risers exceeding the SCC critical stresses for the material. Finally, a well-kept sword is going to be in an environment that is only mildly corrosive (due to normal maintenance activity vs. being exposed to rain, blood, etc).



                      The end upshot would be swords that look fine, proof fine when received by the quartermaster, yet snap in half like twigs months or years later. A modern failure analysis would reveal that the broken sword was spiderwebbed with invisible yet lethal cracks in key spots, despite looking the part of a well-kept sword by any account chosen.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 3 hours ago









                      ShalvenayShalvenay

                      6,68932764




                      6,68932764












                      • "carbonates may work" - Which carbonates are you talking about? A hand full of soda ash? Toss in a few TUMS? Doesn't matter?
                        – Mazura
                        2 hours ago










                      • Any residual salts from the quench bath are going to be removed the first time the sword is cleaned.
                        – Mark
                        1 hour ago


















                      • "carbonates may work" - Which carbonates are you talking about? A hand full of soda ash? Toss in a few TUMS? Doesn't matter?
                        – Mazura
                        2 hours ago










                      • Any residual salts from the quench bath are going to be removed the first time the sword is cleaned.
                        – Mark
                        1 hour ago
















                      "carbonates may work" - Which carbonates are you talking about? A hand full of soda ash? Toss in a few TUMS? Doesn't matter?
                      – Mazura
                      2 hours ago




                      "carbonates may work" - Which carbonates are you talking about? A hand full of soda ash? Toss in a few TUMS? Doesn't matter?
                      – Mazura
                      2 hours ago












                      Any residual salts from the quench bath are going to be removed the first time the sword is cleaned.
                      – Mark
                      1 hour ago




                      Any residual salts from the quench bath are going to be removed the first time the sword is cleaned.
                      – Mark
                      1 hour ago











                      -1














                      Have you ever seen one of those amazing videos of aluminum being dissolved by gallium or mercury?



                      Your blacksmiths likely made perfectly good equipment, and your saboteurs intercepted it along the way to the army and treated it with mercury, greatly weakening its internal structure. These videos emphasize that the liquid metal won't be able to penetrate and react with the solid metal unless you remove the outer oxide layer first, but it seems you can do that with sandpaper or any other simple tool that is strong enough to scratch the metal. It only takes a few small scratches before the liquid metal can penetrate the solid metal and weaken it from the inside. This is why mercury and gallium aren't allowed on airplanes. It seems that the process can weaken the metal enough to fail under light stress in only a few minutes, according to some of these YouTube videos. It doesn't take much to tear these apart by hand, so you may want to just weaken a few parts in the center of the shield so it doesn't fail until it is in combat. They wouldn't even need to treat all of the equipment, even 10% failure rate would likely make them lose faith in the whole batch.



                      According to the Wikipedia page on liquid metal embrittlement,




                      The embrittling effects of mercury were first recognized by Pliny the Elder circa 78 AD.




                      I'm not a chemist so perhaps I don't know what to look for, but I mostly am finding details of how it affects aluminum in the context of airplane safety. Those are some modern alloys that wouldn't have been used in the middle ages, but if the effects were in fact noted in 78 AD, then it must happen to some extent in metals that were known and used at that time.



                      All your saboteurs would need is access to liquid mercury (not too hard to get then), unsupervised access to the weapons and armor (maybe they were the ones transporting them to the army, or they had secret access to the armory in the middle of the night after the shipment was delivered), and a few minutes with an alchemist to learn about the method.



                      I'm just imagining the villains loading up the perfectly good equipment into the back of a covered wagon, and during the transport one of them sits in the back scratching shields with a few nails while a second dunks them in a tub of mercury, like an assembly line. You can work out what the details are for your story, but as long as the basic flow is



                      Good metal -> Scratched -> Quickly coated in mercury around the scratch before oxide layer can completely reform -> Wash mercury off, handling the equipment very carefully from this point on -> Deliver to army



                      then you're in good shape.






                      share|improve this answer























                      • The reason you're finding so much about the effect of mercury (or gallium) on aluminum is because the effects are so dramatic. Iron, on the other hand, is almost completely unaffected (among other things, it doesn't have a protective oxide coating).
                        – Mark
                        1 hour ago
















                      -1














                      Have you ever seen one of those amazing videos of aluminum being dissolved by gallium or mercury?



                      Your blacksmiths likely made perfectly good equipment, and your saboteurs intercepted it along the way to the army and treated it with mercury, greatly weakening its internal structure. These videos emphasize that the liquid metal won't be able to penetrate and react with the solid metal unless you remove the outer oxide layer first, but it seems you can do that with sandpaper or any other simple tool that is strong enough to scratch the metal. It only takes a few small scratches before the liquid metal can penetrate the solid metal and weaken it from the inside. This is why mercury and gallium aren't allowed on airplanes. It seems that the process can weaken the metal enough to fail under light stress in only a few minutes, according to some of these YouTube videos. It doesn't take much to tear these apart by hand, so you may want to just weaken a few parts in the center of the shield so it doesn't fail until it is in combat. They wouldn't even need to treat all of the equipment, even 10% failure rate would likely make them lose faith in the whole batch.



                      According to the Wikipedia page on liquid metal embrittlement,




                      The embrittling effects of mercury were first recognized by Pliny the Elder circa 78 AD.




                      I'm not a chemist so perhaps I don't know what to look for, but I mostly am finding details of how it affects aluminum in the context of airplane safety. Those are some modern alloys that wouldn't have been used in the middle ages, but if the effects were in fact noted in 78 AD, then it must happen to some extent in metals that were known and used at that time.



                      All your saboteurs would need is access to liquid mercury (not too hard to get then), unsupervised access to the weapons and armor (maybe they were the ones transporting them to the army, or they had secret access to the armory in the middle of the night after the shipment was delivered), and a few minutes with an alchemist to learn about the method.



                      I'm just imagining the villains loading up the perfectly good equipment into the back of a covered wagon, and during the transport one of them sits in the back scratching shields with a few nails while a second dunks them in a tub of mercury, like an assembly line. You can work out what the details are for your story, but as long as the basic flow is



                      Good metal -> Scratched -> Quickly coated in mercury around the scratch before oxide layer can completely reform -> Wash mercury off, handling the equipment very carefully from this point on -> Deliver to army



                      then you're in good shape.






                      share|improve this answer























                      • The reason you're finding so much about the effect of mercury (or gallium) on aluminum is because the effects are so dramatic. Iron, on the other hand, is almost completely unaffected (among other things, it doesn't have a protective oxide coating).
                        – Mark
                        1 hour ago














                      -1












                      -1








                      -1






                      Have you ever seen one of those amazing videos of aluminum being dissolved by gallium or mercury?



                      Your blacksmiths likely made perfectly good equipment, and your saboteurs intercepted it along the way to the army and treated it with mercury, greatly weakening its internal structure. These videos emphasize that the liquid metal won't be able to penetrate and react with the solid metal unless you remove the outer oxide layer first, but it seems you can do that with sandpaper or any other simple tool that is strong enough to scratch the metal. It only takes a few small scratches before the liquid metal can penetrate the solid metal and weaken it from the inside. This is why mercury and gallium aren't allowed on airplanes. It seems that the process can weaken the metal enough to fail under light stress in only a few minutes, according to some of these YouTube videos. It doesn't take much to tear these apart by hand, so you may want to just weaken a few parts in the center of the shield so it doesn't fail until it is in combat. They wouldn't even need to treat all of the equipment, even 10% failure rate would likely make them lose faith in the whole batch.



                      According to the Wikipedia page on liquid metal embrittlement,




                      The embrittling effects of mercury were first recognized by Pliny the Elder circa 78 AD.




                      I'm not a chemist so perhaps I don't know what to look for, but I mostly am finding details of how it affects aluminum in the context of airplane safety. Those are some modern alloys that wouldn't have been used in the middle ages, but if the effects were in fact noted in 78 AD, then it must happen to some extent in metals that were known and used at that time.



                      All your saboteurs would need is access to liquid mercury (not too hard to get then), unsupervised access to the weapons and armor (maybe they were the ones transporting them to the army, or they had secret access to the armory in the middle of the night after the shipment was delivered), and a few minutes with an alchemist to learn about the method.



                      I'm just imagining the villains loading up the perfectly good equipment into the back of a covered wagon, and during the transport one of them sits in the back scratching shields with a few nails while a second dunks them in a tub of mercury, like an assembly line. You can work out what the details are for your story, but as long as the basic flow is



                      Good metal -> Scratched -> Quickly coated in mercury around the scratch before oxide layer can completely reform -> Wash mercury off, handling the equipment very carefully from this point on -> Deliver to army



                      then you're in good shape.






                      share|improve this answer














                      Have you ever seen one of those amazing videos of aluminum being dissolved by gallium or mercury?



                      Your blacksmiths likely made perfectly good equipment, and your saboteurs intercepted it along the way to the army and treated it with mercury, greatly weakening its internal structure. These videos emphasize that the liquid metal won't be able to penetrate and react with the solid metal unless you remove the outer oxide layer first, but it seems you can do that with sandpaper or any other simple tool that is strong enough to scratch the metal. It only takes a few small scratches before the liquid metal can penetrate the solid metal and weaken it from the inside. This is why mercury and gallium aren't allowed on airplanes. It seems that the process can weaken the metal enough to fail under light stress in only a few minutes, according to some of these YouTube videos. It doesn't take much to tear these apart by hand, so you may want to just weaken a few parts in the center of the shield so it doesn't fail until it is in combat. They wouldn't even need to treat all of the equipment, even 10% failure rate would likely make them lose faith in the whole batch.



                      According to the Wikipedia page on liquid metal embrittlement,




                      The embrittling effects of mercury were first recognized by Pliny the Elder circa 78 AD.




                      I'm not a chemist so perhaps I don't know what to look for, but I mostly am finding details of how it affects aluminum in the context of airplane safety. Those are some modern alloys that wouldn't have been used in the middle ages, but if the effects were in fact noted in 78 AD, then it must happen to some extent in metals that were known and used at that time.



                      All your saboteurs would need is access to liquid mercury (not too hard to get then), unsupervised access to the weapons and armor (maybe they were the ones transporting them to the army, or they had secret access to the armory in the middle of the night after the shipment was delivered), and a few minutes with an alchemist to learn about the method.



                      I'm just imagining the villains loading up the perfectly good equipment into the back of a covered wagon, and during the transport one of them sits in the back scratching shields with a few nails while a second dunks them in a tub of mercury, like an assembly line. You can work out what the details are for your story, but as long as the basic flow is



                      Good metal -> Scratched -> Quickly coated in mercury around the scratch before oxide layer can completely reform -> Wash mercury off, handling the equipment very carefully from this point on -> Deliver to army



                      then you're in good shape.







                      share|improve this answer














                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer








                      edited 2 hours ago

























                      answered 2 hours ago









                      CodyCody

                      3,0961520




                      3,0961520












                      • The reason you're finding so much about the effect of mercury (or gallium) on aluminum is because the effects are so dramatic. Iron, on the other hand, is almost completely unaffected (among other things, it doesn't have a protective oxide coating).
                        – Mark
                        1 hour ago


















                      • The reason you're finding so much about the effect of mercury (or gallium) on aluminum is because the effects are so dramatic. Iron, on the other hand, is almost completely unaffected (among other things, it doesn't have a protective oxide coating).
                        – Mark
                        1 hour ago
















                      The reason you're finding so much about the effect of mercury (or gallium) on aluminum is because the effects are so dramatic. Iron, on the other hand, is almost completely unaffected (among other things, it doesn't have a protective oxide coating).
                      – Mark
                      1 hour ago




                      The reason you're finding so much about the effect of mercury (or gallium) on aluminum is because the effects are so dramatic. Iron, on the other hand, is almost completely unaffected (among other things, it doesn't have a protective oxide coating).
                      – Mark
                      1 hour ago










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