How would a solely written language work mechanically
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I am trying to make a language for a fictional world and I am wondering how a species without vocal chords could communicate via written language
language
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show 3 more comments
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I am trying to make a language for a fictional world and I am wondering how a species without vocal chords could communicate via written language
language
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2
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An interesting problem is that they could not have the concept of phonemes. I would think this would make it likely that they end up with a language with a symbol for each word, since the semantics are the fundamental structure now.
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– Ryan_L
9 hours ago
6
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Think "sign language".
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– StephenG
9 hours ago
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Why do you think there is any necessary connection between spoken and written language?
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– Jeff Zeitlin
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Birds do not have vocal chords and yet they can make all the sounds humans can make, and many other sounds on top. Moreover, there is a great real-world example of a script (almost) completely divorced from the phonetic realization of the language: Chinese characters; they form the basis of a famous thought experiment, the Chinese room, which is often used to exemplify the difference (or lack thereof) between symbol manipulation and comprehension.
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– AlexP
8 hours ago
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@AlexP Likewise, insects are capable of a dizzying array of sounds and don't even pass air through their sound-making apparatus. Still, the question is still useful: 'How would a written language develop in a species that cannot communicate using sound?'.
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– Ynneadwraith
8 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
I am trying to make a language for a fictional world and I am wondering how a species without vocal chords could communicate via written language
language
New contributor
Sage is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
I am trying to make a language for a fictional world and I am wondering how a species without vocal chords could communicate via written language
language
language
New contributor
Sage is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Sage is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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asked 9 hours ago
SageSage
411
411
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2
$begingroup$
An interesting problem is that they could not have the concept of phonemes. I would think this would make it likely that they end up with a language with a symbol for each word, since the semantics are the fundamental structure now.
$endgroup$
– Ryan_L
9 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
Think "sign language".
$endgroup$
– StephenG
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why do you think there is any necessary connection between spoken and written language?
$endgroup$
– Jeff Zeitlin
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Birds do not have vocal chords and yet they can make all the sounds humans can make, and many other sounds on top. Moreover, there is a great real-world example of a script (almost) completely divorced from the phonetic realization of the language: Chinese characters; they form the basis of a famous thought experiment, the Chinese room, which is often used to exemplify the difference (or lack thereof) between symbol manipulation and comprehension.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AlexP Likewise, insects are capable of a dizzying array of sounds and don't even pass air through their sound-making apparatus. Still, the question is still useful: 'How would a written language develop in a species that cannot communicate using sound?'.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
8 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
2
$begingroup$
An interesting problem is that they could not have the concept of phonemes. I would think this would make it likely that they end up with a language with a symbol for each word, since the semantics are the fundamental structure now.
$endgroup$
– Ryan_L
9 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
Think "sign language".
$endgroup$
– StephenG
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why do you think there is any necessary connection between spoken and written language?
$endgroup$
– Jeff Zeitlin
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Birds do not have vocal chords and yet they can make all the sounds humans can make, and many other sounds on top. Moreover, there is a great real-world example of a script (almost) completely divorced from the phonetic realization of the language: Chinese characters; they form the basis of a famous thought experiment, the Chinese room, which is often used to exemplify the difference (or lack thereof) between symbol manipulation and comprehension.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AlexP Likewise, insects are capable of a dizzying array of sounds and don't even pass air through their sound-making apparatus. Still, the question is still useful: 'How would a written language develop in a species that cannot communicate using sound?'.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
8 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
An interesting problem is that they could not have the concept of phonemes. I would think this would make it likely that they end up with a language with a symbol for each word, since the semantics are the fundamental structure now.
$endgroup$
– Ryan_L
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
An interesting problem is that they could not have the concept of phonemes. I would think this would make it likely that they end up with a language with a symbol for each word, since the semantics are the fundamental structure now.
$endgroup$
– Ryan_L
9 hours ago
6
6
$begingroup$
Think "sign language".
$endgroup$
– StephenG
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Think "sign language".
$endgroup$
– StephenG
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why do you think there is any necessary connection between spoken and written language?
$endgroup$
– Jeff Zeitlin
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why do you think there is any necessary connection between spoken and written language?
$endgroup$
– Jeff Zeitlin
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Birds do not have vocal chords and yet they can make all the sounds humans can make, and many other sounds on top. Moreover, there is a great real-world example of a script (almost) completely divorced from the phonetic realization of the language: Chinese characters; they form the basis of a famous thought experiment, the Chinese room, which is often used to exemplify the difference (or lack thereof) between symbol manipulation and comprehension.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Birds do not have vocal chords and yet they can make all the sounds humans can make, and many other sounds on top. Moreover, there is a great real-world example of a script (almost) completely divorced from the phonetic realization of the language: Chinese characters; they form the basis of a famous thought experiment, the Chinese room, which is often used to exemplify the difference (or lack thereof) between symbol manipulation and comprehension.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AlexP Likewise, insects are capable of a dizzying array of sounds and don't even pass air through their sound-making apparatus. Still, the question is still useful: 'How would a written language develop in a species that cannot communicate using sound?'.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AlexP Likewise, insects are capable of a dizzying array of sounds and don't even pass air through their sound-making apparatus. Still, the question is still useful: 'How would a written language develop in a species that cannot communicate using sound?'.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
8 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
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It may be 2-dimensional as well as 1-dimensional
Speech, sign languages and such transmit a single sign at a time, thus forcing the writing, which is secondary, to also form a sequence of signs that can be read one at a time.
A language made by different species that originates in a written form directly doesn't have to follow this restriction. It's likely to develop from the sights of the body language, and there several signs can be formed simultaneously by different body parts, each being as complex as human facial expressions.
If your species have brains adapted to read such complex poses, their writings will first capture the poses in something like parietal art. And it will get more abstract from that, to the level of modern ideographs or more. But no need may ever arise to linearize it.
So the words or sentences in the language may be based on a graph grammar instead of our conventional string grammars. Graph grammars are usually more powerful at the same level of rule types, a context-free one able to form sentences that only a context-dependent can make in pure one-dimensional text. So a writing that has never passed through speech form has a potential to be something drastically different from human speech and lead to a completely alien way of thinking.
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1
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+1 so much! I can confirm from personal experience this is actually a real problem even for us humans - our speech is linear but our cognition does not have to be. I could express much more of what's in my head were it not for the confines of speech linearity of normal languages.
$endgroup$
– mtraceur
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
In the end, what you are talking about can be viewed as a linear language with complex metawords. With each word representing many of our words. As all languages reach a limit of what can be expressed in a single instant.
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– Garret Gang
54 mins ago
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This is a mind-blowingly good answer. When you start to think of really excellent painters who succeed in communicating ideas and concepts and emotions through paintings—you realize the difficulty in linearizing that communication.
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– Wildcard
37 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Chalk and slate, charcoal and wood, or clay or wax tablets. (At least to start.) They would have started by scratching characters into the dirt and painting on cave walls, but technological necessity would develop portable tools.
That said, there's a more portable mechanism yet that would likely evolve in parallel - sign language. If the creatures are unable to make any sounds, that doesn't necessitate a written language.
(It goes without saying that advances in writing technology would be adopted as it was developed.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Excellent idea, and with some expansion could be a perfect answer. So, if a species develops sign language first...what might its written language look like? I'd imagine it would start as a pictographic representation of whatever appendages they use for signing.
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– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
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@Ynneadwraith In many sign-languages, the movement of the appendage is just as important as the shape and final positions. That can be rather hard to represent in static images. Certainly for Nouns, an image of the object in question is a more probable starting point.
$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
9 hours ago
2
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@Ynneadwraith You May be interested in this. I remember the Conservative party was picked up on being the only major party in the last UK general election not to provide a BSL translation of their (written) manifesto, a concept that confused me so much I spent a day or two researching written sign languages.
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– Joe Bloggs
9 hours ago
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@Chronocidal Very good point. I expect you would need either a representation of movement, or a symbolic representation of the whole appendage movement that's divorced from the actual movement itself. I'd expect that would be a later development.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
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@JoeBloggs Yeah BSL differs quite a lot from English, especially in grammar. Certainly enough to require translations between the two!
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
add a comment |
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A language could be developed in any manner that conveys information. Sound can be carried in other ways than using vocal cords. Clapping, snapping fingers, clicking claws, sign language. It might even develop from facial expressions.
A written language might be assumed to start from pictures such as hieroglyphics, but it could also be symbol based. For instance, if the language started from sign language, the written language may mimic the shapes of the sign language. If the language were based on the tapping of sticks together, the written language may somehow show the beat (like music for drums).
How the language is conveyed may bias the society toward being more mathematical (from rhythms) or being emotional tuned to each other if based on facial expressions.
While it doesn't have to, I see no reason to think that the technology couldn't follow the same path as our technology, assuming they have hands or something similar once a language is invented to manipulate tools the same way.
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add a comment |
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Writing developed from pictures to pictograms to ideograms. In a species with spoken language it can then move to phonetic scripts such as syllabaries and alphabets. But in a species that does not speak the next step would reasonably a featural script describing whatever method they used to communicate without writing.
What form that takes is really up to you. For sign language it would be stylized representations of the gestures. For color based communication, it would be just the colors. Or bunch of lines of different lengths corresponding to different possible colors. Which would also work for scent or radio based communication.
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add a comment |
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My understanding is that pictographs like hieroglyphics are developed before an alphabet takes form. Once the alphabet forms, your fictional species could use bioluminescence to communicate in a style similar to morse code. A certain sequence of blinks would represent a written letter. Certain colors could also express different emotions.
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add a comment |
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Actually when it reach the aplabet stage, than leters may be anything "random but distinct" - alphabet also have no relation to how it is spoken (other than wague custom - the same alphabet is spelled differently in different countries and the words are read really different (if read by native, not as try to spoke in other known language)).
So maybe A would be "spelled" as jaws cliks, while B would be spelled as rotation around vertical axes clockwice, C would be spelled as particular pheromone and D would be just decent fluorescence. (And their written form may be the same as in aplhabet, or totally different, it does not matter too, just there should be a way to recognize those "characters" with sences avaiable to the alien race.)
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add a comment |
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6 Answers
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6 Answers
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active
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$begingroup$
It may be 2-dimensional as well as 1-dimensional
Speech, sign languages and such transmit a single sign at a time, thus forcing the writing, which is secondary, to also form a sequence of signs that can be read one at a time.
A language made by different species that originates in a written form directly doesn't have to follow this restriction. It's likely to develop from the sights of the body language, and there several signs can be formed simultaneously by different body parts, each being as complex as human facial expressions.
If your species have brains adapted to read such complex poses, their writings will first capture the poses in something like parietal art. And it will get more abstract from that, to the level of modern ideographs or more. But no need may ever arise to linearize it.
So the words or sentences in the language may be based on a graph grammar instead of our conventional string grammars. Graph grammars are usually more powerful at the same level of rule types, a context-free one able to form sentences that only a context-dependent can make in pure one-dimensional text. So a writing that has never passed through speech form has a potential to be something drastically different from human speech and lead to a completely alien way of thinking.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
+1 so much! I can confirm from personal experience this is actually a real problem even for us humans - our speech is linear but our cognition does not have to be. I could express much more of what's in my head were it not for the confines of speech linearity of normal languages.
$endgroup$
– mtraceur
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
In the end, what you are talking about can be viewed as a linear language with complex metawords. With each word representing many of our words. As all languages reach a limit of what can be expressed in a single instant.
$endgroup$
– Garret Gang
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
This is a mind-blowingly good answer. When you start to think of really excellent painters who succeed in communicating ideas and concepts and emotions through paintings—you realize the difficulty in linearizing that communication.
$endgroup$
– Wildcard
37 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It may be 2-dimensional as well as 1-dimensional
Speech, sign languages and such transmit a single sign at a time, thus forcing the writing, which is secondary, to also form a sequence of signs that can be read one at a time.
A language made by different species that originates in a written form directly doesn't have to follow this restriction. It's likely to develop from the sights of the body language, and there several signs can be formed simultaneously by different body parts, each being as complex as human facial expressions.
If your species have brains adapted to read such complex poses, their writings will first capture the poses in something like parietal art. And it will get more abstract from that, to the level of modern ideographs or more. But no need may ever arise to linearize it.
So the words or sentences in the language may be based on a graph grammar instead of our conventional string grammars. Graph grammars are usually more powerful at the same level of rule types, a context-free one able to form sentences that only a context-dependent can make in pure one-dimensional text. So a writing that has never passed through speech form has a potential to be something drastically different from human speech and lead to a completely alien way of thinking.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
+1 so much! I can confirm from personal experience this is actually a real problem even for us humans - our speech is linear but our cognition does not have to be. I could express much more of what's in my head were it not for the confines of speech linearity of normal languages.
$endgroup$
– mtraceur
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
In the end, what you are talking about can be viewed as a linear language with complex metawords. With each word representing many of our words. As all languages reach a limit of what can be expressed in a single instant.
$endgroup$
– Garret Gang
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
This is a mind-blowingly good answer. When you start to think of really excellent painters who succeed in communicating ideas and concepts and emotions through paintings—you realize the difficulty in linearizing that communication.
$endgroup$
– Wildcard
37 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It may be 2-dimensional as well as 1-dimensional
Speech, sign languages and such transmit a single sign at a time, thus forcing the writing, which is secondary, to also form a sequence of signs that can be read one at a time.
A language made by different species that originates in a written form directly doesn't have to follow this restriction. It's likely to develop from the sights of the body language, and there several signs can be formed simultaneously by different body parts, each being as complex as human facial expressions.
If your species have brains adapted to read such complex poses, their writings will first capture the poses in something like parietal art. And it will get more abstract from that, to the level of modern ideographs or more. But no need may ever arise to linearize it.
So the words or sentences in the language may be based on a graph grammar instead of our conventional string grammars. Graph grammars are usually more powerful at the same level of rule types, a context-free one able to form sentences that only a context-dependent can make in pure one-dimensional text. So a writing that has never passed through speech form has a potential to be something drastically different from human speech and lead to a completely alien way of thinking.
$endgroup$
It may be 2-dimensional as well as 1-dimensional
Speech, sign languages and such transmit a single sign at a time, thus forcing the writing, which is secondary, to also form a sequence of signs that can be read one at a time.
A language made by different species that originates in a written form directly doesn't have to follow this restriction. It's likely to develop from the sights of the body language, and there several signs can be formed simultaneously by different body parts, each being as complex as human facial expressions.
If your species have brains adapted to read such complex poses, their writings will first capture the poses in something like parietal art. And it will get more abstract from that, to the level of modern ideographs or more. But no need may ever arise to linearize it.
So the words or sentences in the language may be based on a graph grammar instead of our conventional string grammars. Graph grammars are usually more powerful at the same level of rule types, a context-free one able to form sentences that only a context-dependent can make in pure one-dimensional text. So a writing that has never passed through speech form has a potential to be something drastically different from human speech and lead to a completely alien way of thinking.
answered 7 hours ago
avekavek
1,745415
1,745415
1
$begingroup$
+1 so much! I can confirm from personal experience this is actually a real problem even for us humans - our speech is linear but our cognition does not have to be. I could express much more of what's in my head were it not for the confines of speech linearity of normal languages.
$endgroup$
– mtraceur
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
In the end, what you are talking about can be viewed as a linear language with complex metawords. With each word representing many of our words. As all languages reach a limit of what can be expressed in a single instant.
$endgroup$
– Garret Gang
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
This is a mind-blowingly good answer. When you start to think of really excellent painters who succeed in communicating ideas and concepts and emotions through paintings—you realize the difficulty in linearizing that communication.
$endgroup$
– Wildcard
37 mins ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
+1 so much! I can confirm from personal experience this is actually a real problem even for us humans - our speech is linear but our cognition does not have to be. I could express much more of what's in my head were it not for the confines of speech linearity of normal languages.
$endgroup$
– mtraceur
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
In the end, what you are talking about can be viewed as a linear language with complex metawords. With each word representing many of our words. As all languages reach a limit of what can be expressed in a single instant.
$endgroup$
– Garret Gang
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
This is a mind-blowingly good answer. When you start to think of really excellent painters who succeed in communicating ideas and concepts and emotions through paintings—you realize the difficulty in linearizing that communication.
$endgroup$
– Wildcard
37 mins ago
1
1
$begingroup$
+1 so much! I can confirm from personal experience this is actually a real problem even for us humans - our speech is linear but our cognition does not have to be. I could express much more of what's in my head were it not for the confines of speech linearity of normal languages.
$endgroup$
– mtraceur
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
+1 so much! I can confirm from personal experience this is actually a real problem even for us humans - our speech is linear but our cognition does not have to be. I could express much more of what's in my head were it not for the confines of speech linearity of normal languages.
$endgroup$
– mtraceur
3 hours ago
$begingroup$
In the end, what you are talking about can be viewed as a linear language with complex metawords. With each word representing many of our words. As all languages reach a limit of what can be expressed in a single instant.
$endgroup$
– Garret Gang
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
In the end, what you are talking about can be viewed as a linear language with complex metawords. With each word representing many of our words. As all languages reach a limit of what can be expressed in a single instant.
$endgroup$
– Garret Gang
54 mins ago
$begingroup$
This is a mind-blowingly good answer. When you start to think of really excellent painters who succeed in communicating ideas and concepts and emotions through paintings—you realize the difficulty in linearizing that communication.
$endgroup$
– Wildcard
37 mins ago
$begingroup$
This is a mind-blowingly good answer. When you start to think of really excellent painters who succeed in communicating ideas and concepts and emotions through paintings—you realize the difficulty in linearizing that communication.
$endgroup$
– Wildcard
37 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Chalk and slate, charcoal and wood, or clay or wax tablets. (At least to start.) They would have started by scratching characters into the dirt and painting on cave walls, but technological necessity would develop portable tools.
That said, there's a more portable mechanism yet that would likely evolve in parallel - sign language. If the creatures are unable to make any sounds, that doesn't necessitate a written language.
(It goes without saying that advances in writing technology would be adopted as it was developed.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Excellent idea, and with some expansion could be a perfect answer. So, if a species develops sign language first...what might its written language look like? I'd imagine it would start as a pictographic representation of whatever appendages they use for signing.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith In many sign-languages, the movement of the appendage is just as important as the shape and final positions. That can be rather hard to represent in static images. Certainly for Nouns, an image of the object in question is a more probable starting point.
$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith You May be interested in this. I remember the Conservative party was picked up on being the only major party in the last UK general election not to provide a BSL translation of their (written) manifesto, a concept that confused me so much I spent a day or two researching written sign languages.
$endgroup$
– Joe Bloggs
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal Very good point. I expect you would need either a representation of movement, or a symbolic representation of the whole appendage movement that's divorced from the actual movement itself. I'd expect that would be a later development.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JoeBloggs Yeah BSL differs quite a lot from English, especially in grammar. Certainly enough to require translations between the two!
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Chalk and slate, charcoal and wood, or clay or wax tablets. (At least to start.) They would have started by scratching characters into the dirt and painting on cave walls, but technological necessity would develop portable tools.
That said, there's a more portable mechanism yet that would likely evolve in parallel - sign language. If the creatures are unable to make any sounds, that doesn't necessitate a written language.
(It goes without saying that advances in writing technology would be adopted as it was developed.)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Excellent idea, and with some expansion could be a perfect answer. So, if a species develops sign language first...what might its written language look like? I'd imagine it would start as a pictographic representation of whatever appendages they use for signing.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith In many sign-languages, the movement of the appendage is just as important as the shape and final positions. That can be rather hard to represent in static images. Certainly for Nouns, an image of the object in question is a more probable starting point.
$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith You May be interested in this. I remember the Conservative party was picked up on being the only major party in the last UK general election not to provide a BSL translation of their (written) manifesto, a concept that confused me so much I spent a day or two researching written sign languages.
$endgroup$
– Joe Bloggs
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal Very good point. I expect you would need either a representation of movement, or a symbolic representation of the whole appendage movement that's divorced from the actual movement itself. I'd expect that would be a later development.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JoeBloggs Yeah BSL differs quite a lot from English, especially in grammar. Certainly enough to require translations between the two!
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Chalk and slate, charcoal and wood, or clay or wax tablets. (At least to start.) They would have started by scratching characters into the dirt and painting on cave walls, but technological necessity would develop portable tools.
That said, there's a more portable mechanism yet that would likely evolve in parallel - sign language. If the creatures are unable to make any sounds, that doesn't necessitate a written language.
(It goes without saying that advances in writing technology would be adopted as it was developed.)
$endgroup$
Chalk and slate, charcoal and wood, or clay or wax tablets. (At least to start.) They would have started by scratching characters into the dirt and painting on cave walls, but technological necessity would develop portable tools.
That said, there's a more portable mechanism yet that would likely evolve in parallel - sign language. If the creatures are unable to make any sounds, that doesn't necessitate a written language.
(It goes without saying that advances in writing technology would be adopted as it was developed.)
answered 9 hours ago
jdunlopjdunlop
8,01811846
8,01811846
$begingroup$
Excellent idea, and with some expansion could be a perfect answer. So, if a species develops sign language first...what might its written language look like? I'd imagine it would start as a pictographic representation of whatever appendages they use for signing.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith In many sign-languages, the movement of the appendage is just as important as the shape and final positions. That can be rather hard to represent in static images. Certainly for Nouns, an image of the object in question is a more probable starting point.
$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith You May be interested in this. I remember the Conservative party was picked up on being the only major party in the last UK general election not to provide a BSL translation of their (written) manifesto, a concept that confused me so much I spent a day or two researching written sign languages.
$endgroup$
– Joe Bloggs
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal Very good point. I expect you would need either a representation of movement, or a symbolic representation of the whole appendage movement that's divorced from the actual movement itself. I'd expect that would be a later development.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JoeBloggs Yeah BSL differs quite a lot from English, especially in grammar. Certainly enough to require translations between the two!
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Excellent idea, and with some expansion could be a perfect answer. So, if a species develops sign language first...what might its written language look like? I'd imagine it would start as a pictographic representation of whatever appendages they use for signing.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith In many sign-languages, the movement of the appendage is just as important as the shape and final positions. That can be rather hard to represent in static images. Certainly for Nouns, an image of the object in question is a more probable starting point.
$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith You May be interested in this. I remember the Conservative party was picked up on being the only major party in the last UK general election not to provide a BSL translation of their (written) manifesto, a concept that confused me so much I spent a day or two researching written sign languages.
$endgroup$
– Joe Bloggs
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal Very good point. I expect you would need either a representation of movement, or a symbolic representation of the whole appendage movement that's divorced from the actual movement itself. I'd expect that would be a later development.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JoeBloggs Yeah BSL differs quite a lot from English, especially in grammar. Certainly enough to require translations between the two!
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Excellent idea, and with some expansion could be a perfect answer. So, if a species develops sign language first...what might its written language look like? I'd imagine it would start as a pictographic representation of whatever appendages they use for signing.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Excellent idea, and with some expansion could be a perfect answer. So, if a species develops sign language first...what might its written language look like? I'd imagine it would start as a pictographic representation of whatever appendages they use for signing.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith In many sign-languages, the movement of the appendage is just as important as the shape and final positions. That can be rather hard to represent in static images. Certainly for Nouns, an image of the object in question is a more probable starting point.
$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith In many sign-languages, the movement of the appendage is just as important as the shape and final positions. That can be rather hard to represent in static images. Certainly for Nouns, an image of the object in question is a more probable starting point.
$endgroup$
– Chronocidal
9 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith You May be interested in this. I remember the Conservative party was picked up on being the only major party in the last UK general election not to provide a BSL translation of their (written) manifesto, a concept that confused me so much I spent a day or two researching written sign languages.
$endgroup$
– Joe Bloggs
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Ynneadwraith You May be interested in this. I remember the Conservative party was picked up on being the only major party in the last UK general election not to provide a BSL translation of their (written) manifesto, a concept that confused me so much I spent a day or two researching written sign languages.
$endgroup$
– Joe Bloggs
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal Very good point. I expect you would need either a representation of movement, or a symbolic representation of the whole appendage movement that's divorced from the actual movement itself. I'd expect that would be a later development.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Chronocidal Very good point. I expect you would need either a representation of movement, or a symbolic representation of the whole appendage movement that's divorced from the actual movement itself. I'd expect that would be a later development.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JoeBloggs Yeah BSL differs quite a lot from English, especially in grammar. Certainly enough to require translations between the two!
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@JoeBloggs Yeah BSL differs quite a lot from English, especially in grammar. Certainly enough to require translations between the two!
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A language could be developed in any manner that conveys information. Sound can be carried in other ways than using vocal cords. Clapping, snapping fingers, clicking claws, sign language. It might even develop from facial expressions.
A written language might be assumed to start from pictures such as hieroglyphics, but it could also be symbol based. For instance, if the language started from sign language, the written language may mimic the shapes of the sign language. If the language were based on the tapping of sticks together, the written language may somehow show the beat (like music for drums).
How the language is conveyed may bias the society toward being more mathematical (from rhythms) or being emotional tuned to each other if based on facial expressions.
While it doesn't have to, I see no reason to think that the technology couldn't follow the same path as our technology, assuming they have hands or something similar once a language is invented to manipulate tools the same way.
New contributor
MJ-Konkel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A language could be developed in any manner that conveys information. Sound can be carried in other ways than using vocal cords. Clapping, snapping fingers, clicking claws, sign language. It might even develop from facial expressions.
A written language might be assumed to start from pictures such as hieroglyphics, but it could also be symbol based. For instance, if the language started from sign language, the written language may mimic the shapes of the sign language. If the language were based on the tapping of sticks together, the written language may somehow show the beat (like music for drums).
How the language is conveyed may bias the society toward being more mathematical (from rhythms) or being emotional tuned to each other if based on facial expressions.
While it doesn't have to, I see no reason to think that the technology couldn't follow the same path as our technology, assuming they have hands or something similar once a language is invented to manipulate tools the same way.
New contributor
MJ-Konkel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A language could be developed in any manner that conveys information. Sound can be carried in other ways than using vocal cords. Clapping, snapping fingers, clicking claws, sign language. It might even develop from facial expressions.
A written language might be assumed to start from pictures such as hieroglyphics, but it could also be symbol based. For instance, if the language started from sign language, the written language may mimic the shapes of the sign language. If the language were based on the tapping of sticks together, the written language may somehow show the beat (like music for drums).
How the language is conveyed may bias the society toward being more mathematical (from rhythms) or being emotional tuned to each other if based on facial expressions.
While it doesn't have to, I see no reason to think that the technology couldn't follow the same path as our technology, assuming they have hands or something similar once a language is invented to manipulate tools the same way.
New contributor
MJ-Konkel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
A language could be developed in any manner that conveys information. Sound can be carried in other ways than using vocal cords. Clapping, snapping fingers, clicking claws, sign language. It might even develop from facial expressions.
A written language might be assumed to start from pictures such as hieroglyphics, but it could also be symbol based. For instance, if the language started from sign language, the written language may mimic the shapes of the sign language. If the language were based on the tapping of sticks together, the written language may somehow show the beat (like music for drums).
How the language is conveyed may bias the society toward being more mathematical (from rhythms) or being emotional tuned to each other if based on facial expressions.
While it doesn't have to, I see no reason to think that the technology couldn't follow the same path as our technology, assuming they have hands or something similar once a language is invented to manipulate tools the same way.
New contributor
MJ-Konkel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
MJ-Konkel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 9 hours ago
MJ-KonkelMJ-Konkel
113
113
New contributor
MJ-Konkel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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MJ-Konkel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Writing developed from pictures to pictograms to ideograms. In a species with spoken language it can then move to phonetic scripts such as syllabaries and alphabets. But in a species that does not speak the next step would reasonably a featural script describing whatever method they used to communicate without writing.
What form that takes is really up to you. For sign language it would be stylized representations of the gestures. For color based communication, it would be just the colors. Or bunch of lines of different lengths corresponding to different possible colors. Which would also work for scent or radio based communication.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Writing developed from pictures to pictograms to ideograms. In a species with spoken language it can then move to phonetic scripts such as syllabaries and alphabets. But in a species that does not speak the next step would reasonably a featural script describing whatever method they used to communicate without writing.
What form that takes is really up to you. For sign language it would be stylized representations of the gestures. For color based communication, it would be just the colors. Or bunch of lines of different lengths corresponding to different possible colors. Which would also work for scent or radio based communication.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Writing developed from pictures to pictograms to ideograms. In a species with spoken language it can then move to phonetic scripts such as syllabaries and alphabets. But in a species that does not speak the next step would reasonably a featural script describing whatever method they used to communicate without writing.
What form that takes is really up to you. For sign language it would be stylized representations of the gestures. For color based communication, it would be just the colors. Or bunch of lines of different lengths corresponding to different possible colors. Which would also work for scent or radio based communication.
$endgroup$
Writing developed from pictures to pictograms to ideograms. In a species with spoken language it can then move to phonetic scripts such as syllabaries and alphabets. But in a species that does not speak the next step would reasonably a featural script describing whatever method they used to communicate without writing.
What form that takes is really up to you. For sign language it would be stylized representations of the gestures. For color based communication, it would be just the colors. Or bunch of lines of different lengths corresponding to different possible colors. Which would also work for scent or radio based communication.
answered 8 hours ago
Ville NiemiVille Niemi
34.2k260119
34.2k260119
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
My understanding is that pictographs like hieroglyphics are developed before an alphabet takes form. Once the alphabet forms, your fictional species could use bioluminescence to communicate in a style similar to morse code. A certain sequence of blinks would represent a written letter. Certain colors could also express different emotions.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
My understanding is that pictographs like hieroglyphics are developed before an alphabet takes form. Once the alphabet forms, your fictional species could use bioluminescence to communicate in a style similar to morse code. A certain sequence of blinks would represent a written letter. Certain colors could also express different emotions.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
My understanding is that pictographs like hieroglyphics are developed before an alphabet takes form. Once the alphabet forms, your fictional species could use bioluminescence to communicate in a style similar to morse code. A certain sequence of blinks would represent a written letter. Certain colors could also express different emotions.
$endgroup$
My understanding is that pictographs like hieroglyphics are developed before an alphabet takes form. Once the alphabet forms, your fictional species could use bioluminescence to communicate in a style similar to morse code. A certain sequence of blinks would represent a written letter. Certain colors could also express different emotions.
answered 8 hours ago
SciFiGuySciFiGuy
1,41811
1,41811
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Actually when it reach the aplabet stage, than leters may be anything "random but distinct" - alphabet also have no relation to how it is spoken (other than wague custom - the same alphabet is spelled differently in different countries and the words are read really different (if read by native, not as try to spoke in other known language)).
So maybe A would be "spelled" as jaws cliks, while B would be spelled as rotation around vertical axes clockwice, C would be spelled as particular pheromone and D would be just decent fluorescence. (And their written form may be the same as in aplhabet, or totally different, it does not matter too, just there should be a way to recognize those "characters" with sences avaiable to the alien race.)
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Actually when it reach the aplabet stage, than leters may be anything "random but distinct" - alphabet also have no relation to how it is spoken (other than wague custom - the same alphabet is spelled differently in different countries and the words are read really different (if read by native, not as try to spoke in other known language)).
So maybe A would be "spelled" as jaws cliks, while B would be spelled as rotation around vertical axes clockwice, C would be spelled as particular pheromone and D would be just decent fluorescence. (And their written form may be the same as in aplhabet, or totally different, it does not matter too, just there should be a way to recognize those "characters" with sences avaiable to the alien race.)
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Actually when it reach the aplabet stage, than leters may be anything "random but distinct" - alphabet also have no relation to how it is spoken (other than wague custom - the same alphabet is spelled differently in different countries and the words are read really different (if read by native, not as try to spoke in other known language)).
So maybe A would be "spelled" as jaws cliks, while B would be spelled as rotation around vertical axes clockwice, C would be spelled as particular pheromone and D would be just decent fluorescence. (And their written form may be the same as in aplhabet, or totally different, it does not matter too, just there should be a way to recognize those "characters" with sences avaiable to the alien race.)
$endgroup$
Actually when it reach the aplabet stage, than leters may be anything "random but distinct" - alphabet also have no relation to how it is spoken (other than wague custom - the same alphabet is spelled differently in different countries and the words are read really different (if read by native, not as try to spoke in other known language)).
So maybe A would be "spelled" as jaws cliks, while B would be spelled as rotation around vertical axes clockwice, C would be spelled as particular pheromone and D would be just decent fluorescence. (And their written form may be the same as in aplhabet, or totally different, it does not matter too, just there should be a way to recognize those "characters" with sences avaiable to the alien race.)
answered 39 mins ago
gilhadgilhad
1,452159
1,452159
add a comment |
add a comment |
Sage is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sage is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sage is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sage is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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2
$begingroup$
An interesting problem is that they could not have the concept of phonemes. I would think this would make it likely that they end up with a language with a symbol for each word, since the semantics are the fundamental structure now.
$endgroup$
– Ryan_L
9 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
Think "sign language".
$endgroup$
– StephenG
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Why do you think there is any necessary connection between spoken and written language?
$endgroup$
– Jeff Zeitlin
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Birds do not have vocal chords and yet they can make all the sounds humans can make, and many other sounds on top. Moreover, there is a great real-world example of a script (almost) completely divorced from the phonetic realization of the language: Chinese characters; they form the basis of a famous thought experiment, the Chinese room, which is often used to exemplify the difference (or lack thereof) between symbol manipulation and comprehension.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@AlexP Likewise, insects are capable of a dizzying array of sounds and don't even pass air through their sound-making apparatus. Still, the question is still useful: 'How would a written language develop in a species that cannot communicate using sound?'.
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
8 hours ago