An Undercover Army












3












$begingroup$


Suppose you want to invade Russia. But, beating it in a conventional or nuclear war isn't possible for your people for some reason.



What if, instead, you line up 500,000 soldiers to move to Russia with civilian cover stories, blend in, and at the right moment, emerge everywhere at once with the benefit of surprise, and take over, dropping their cover and becoming an invading/occupying Army (a bit like the lizard people TV mini-series V, but with humans, not lizard people). Put another way, something a bit like a supply it yourself Fifth Column.



Could it be done?



How quickly could it be put in place without being discovered?



What tactics or tools would be needed?



Are there any historical precedents for similar tactics being tried and either working or failing?



(Of course, Russia is just a concrete example. It could be India, or Brazil, or Nigeria, instead, for example.)










share|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Do you mean sleeper cells and sleeper agents?
    $endgroup$
    – Nathan Hopp
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @NathanHopp sounds like it. But on a really massive scale - an army-sized network of these.
    $endgroup$
    – VLAZ
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    "Historical precedents": the rape (=abduction) of the Sabine women comes to mind. Mythical, true. "Tactics": Pietro da Cortona, Nicolas Poussin, Jacques Stella...
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    2 hours ago
















3












$begingroup$


Suppose you want to invade Russia. But, beating it in a conventional or nuclear war isn't possible for your people for some reason.



What if, instead, you line up 500,000 soldiers to move to Russia with civilian cover stories, blend in, and at the right moment, emerge everywhere at once with the benefit of surprise, and take over, dropping their cover and becoming an invading/occupying Army (a bit like the lizard people TV mini-series V, but with humans, not lizard people). Put another way, something a bit like a supply it yourself Fifth Column.



Could it be done?



How quickly could it be put in place without being discovered?



What tactics or tools would be needed?



Are there any historical precedents for similar tactics being tried and either working or failing?



(Of course, Russia is just a concrete example. It could be India, or Brazil, or Nigeria, instead, for example.)










share|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Do you mean sleeper cells and sleeper agents?
    $endgroup$
    – Nathan Hopp
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @NathanHopp sounds like it. But on a really massive scale - an army-sized network of these.
    $endgroup$
    – VLAZ
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    "Historical precedents": the rape (=abduction) of the Sabine women comes to mind. Mythical, true. "Tactics": Pietro da Cortona, Nicolas Poussin, Jacques Stella...
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    2 hours ago














3












3








3





$begingroup$


Suppose you want to invade Russia. But, beating it in a conventional or nuclear war isn't possible for your people for some reason.



What if, instead, you line up 500,000 soldiers to move to Russia with civilian cover stories, blend in, and at the right moment, emerge everywhere at once with the benefit of surprise, and take over, dropping their cover and becoming an invading/occupying Army (a bit like the lizard people TV mini-series V, but with humans, not lizard people). Put another way, something a bit like a supply it yourself Fifth Column.



Could it be done?



How quickly could it be put in place without being discovered?



What tactics or tools would be needed?



Are there any historical precedents for similar tactics being tried and either working or failing?



(Of course, Russia is just a concrete example. It could be India, or Brazil, or Nigeria, instead, for example.)










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




Suppose you want to invade Russia. But, beating it in a conventional or nuclear war isn't possible for your people for some reason.



What if, instead, you line up 500,000 soldiers to move to Russia with civilian cover stories, blend in, and at the right moment, emerge everywhere at once with the benefit of surprise, and take over, dropping their cover and becoming an invading/occupying Army (a bit like the lizard people TV mini-series V, but with humans, not lizard people). Put another way, something a bit like a supply it yourself Fifth Column.



Could it be done?



How quickly could it be put in place without being discovered?



What tactics or tools would be needed?



Are there any historical precedents for similar tactics being tried and either working or failing?



(Of course, Russia is just a concrete example. It could be India, or Brazil, or Nigeria, instead, for example.)







reality-check military history conspiracy






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 2 hours ago









ohwillekeohwilleke

7,6602452




7,6602452












  • $begingroup$
    Do you mean sleeper cells and sleeper agents?
    $endgroup$
    – Nathan Hopp
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @NathanHopp sounds like it. But on a really massive scale - an army-sized network of these.
    $endgroup$
    – VLAZ
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    "Historical precedents": the rape (=abduction) of the Sabine women comes to mind. Mythical, true. "Tactics": Pietro da Cortona, Nicolas Poussin, Jacques Stella...
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    2 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    Do you mean sleeper cells and sleeper agents?
    $endgroup$
    – Nathan Hopp
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @NathanHopp sounds like it. But on a really massive scale - an army-sized network of these.
    $endgroup$
    – VLAZ
    2 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    "Historical precedents": the rape (=abduction) of the Sabine women comes to mind. Mythical, true. "Tactics": Pietro da Cortona, Nicolas Poussin, Jacques Stella...
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    2 hours ago
















$begingroup$
Do you mean sleeper cells and sleeper agents?
$endgroup$
– Nathan Hopp
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
Do you mean sleeper cells and sleeper agents?
$endgroup$
– Nathan Hopp
2 hours ago












$begingroup$
@NathanHopp sounds like it. But on a really massive scale - an army-sized network of these.
$endgroup$
– VLAZ
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
@NathanHopp sounds like it. But on a really massive scale - an army-sized network of these.
$endgroup$
– VLAZ
2 hours ago












$begingroup$
"Historical precedents": the rape (=abduction) of the Sabine women comes to mind. Mythical, true. "Tactics": Pietro da Cortona, Nicolas Poussin, Jacques Stella...
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
"Historical precedents": the rape (=abduction) of the Sabine women comes to mind. Mythical, true. "Tactics": Pietro da Cortona, Nicolas Poussin, Jacques Stella...
$endgroup$
– AlexP
2 hours ago










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















4












$begingroup$

Russia has one of the most liberal immigration policies in the world (a measure Putin's government implemented to counteract its plummeting population due to demographics), but a half-million people in a short period of time is a bit excessive. Still, somewhat theoretically possible.



There are two problems you're going to have to deal with. Russia has one of the strictest gun control regimes on the planet. Aside from shotguns and rifles that people in the rural area have limited permission (note: not right) to possess, there are no legal privately owned firearms. So where this army getting its weapons? And where are they keeping them?



The second issue is maintaining secrecy. There's actually math that can be used to calculate how long a secret can be kept before it can be expected to get out.




On the Viability of Conspiratorial Beliefs



Conspiratorial ideation is the tendency of individuals to believe that
events and power relations are secretly manipulated by certain
clandestine groups and organisations. Many of these ostensibly
explanatory conjectures are non-falsifiable, lacking in evidence or
demonstrably false, yet public acceptance remains high. Efforts to
convince the general public of the validity of medical and scientific
findings can be hampered by such narratives, which can create the
impression of doubt or disagreement in areas where the science is well
established. Conversely, historical examples of exposed conspiracies
do exist and it may be difficult for people to differentiate between
reasonable and dubious assertions. In this work, we establish a simple
mathematical model for conspiracies involving multiple actors with
time, which yields failure probability for any given conspiracy.
Parameters for the model are estimated from literature examples of
known scandals, and the factors influencing conspiracy success and
failure are explored. The model is also used to estimate the
likelihood of claims from some commonly-held conspiratorial beliefs;
these are namely that the moon-landings were faked, climate-change is
a hoax, vaccination is dangerous and that a cure for cancer is being
suppressed by vested interests. Simulations of these claims predict
that intrinsic failure would be imminent even with the most generous
estimates for the secret-keeping ability of active participants—the
results of this model suggest that large conspiracies (≥1000 agents)
quickly become untenable and prone to failure. The theory presented
here might be useful in counteracting the potentially deleterious
consequences of bogus and anti-science narratives, and examining the
hypothetical conditions under which sustainable conspiracy might be
possible.



https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147905




TLDR version: the more people involved, the faster someone will blow it. Using some of the examples in the article, counting just the 500,000 soldiers it will be a near certainty the operation will be blown in under 3 years. There's 50% odds it will be blown within one year. And that doesn't count the people staying at home who know about the operation.



So, realistically, no.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    3












    $begingroup$

    Short answer is no, but the longer answer is far more interesting.



    First of all, if you're looking at a simple, knock down, drag out fight with the military in question, let's assume you need equal numbers to the military in question.



    There is a really cool graph out of the world bank that shows the percentages of population in the military across the world, and by country, over time. The current average is around 0.9%, but let's assume that you want to get 1% of Russia's population being made up of your fifth column.



    Russia's population is currently around 145m, meaning you need 1.4m, maybe 1.5m sleepers in the country. Based on some statistics I pulled off the internet, in 2017 Russia admitted around 250k immigrants that year.



    Based on this model, assuming you can take EVERY immigration place in the Russian admission program, it's still going to take you 6 years to embed your sleeper force.



    BUT; if you want an army and not a network of terror cells, you also need equipment. You need guns (of course), possibly tanks, planes, missiles, and LOTS of computers. You need infrastructure like training bases, etc. Otherwise, all you're doing is engaging in a guerrilla war in the streets, and that's still going to need lots and lots of small arms.



    BUT; you also need a plan. Just going street to street and taking the country is (in a word) dumb. You want to take critical infrastructure, especially communication infrastructure, and neutralise your enemy's capacity to fight back. That means taking their bases et al. For that, you really want to embed your army in their army.



    That means infiltration, having kids that are born in Russia, and getting them ALL to join the military. That's on average a 30 year investment or so to get the outcome you're after.



    I'd argue that there's more efficient ways to do it, but it does have one single benefit that ties in nicely with Sun Tzu; you'd have your army literally living off the enemy lands once you've started your covert invasion.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$





















      1












      $begingroup$

      The biggest problem that you're going to face is secrecy



      I probably don't need to point out that 500,000 people is a large number. Each one of those soldiers is a detection risk. If any one of them acts suspiciously enough to be picked up by the Russian intelligence operations. Even worse, each one of your soldiers is a defection risk.



      And once you've lost the element of surprise, every part of your plan works against you. Your soldiers are isolated, difficult to contact, and in a foreign country. They'll be easily picked up one by one, and by the time it comes for you to trigger the attack, you'll have no army.



      Even if every member of your army has ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, you'll still get discovered



      Wikipedia places the population of temporary migrant workers at about 7 million. That means that 500,000 additional people is about a 7% increase in that count, not exactly a drop in the bucket. Especially since the increase is coming entirely from a single country.



      Even if some of your soldiers arrive through other channels, you simply can't conceal the movement of that many people, and the powers that be are going to notice. Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        "Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously." yeah, I was thinking about that in relation to something else. Even assuming your soldiers have ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, they still need to arrive in Russia which includes a background check. So you'd have to have a bunch of people forging documents for them and making up backgrounds. Are all of these people master level forgers and writers, too? Surely even a bad immigration officer in Russia would eventually go "hold on, this doesn't make sense" after seeing a thousand bacckgrounds.
        $endgroup$
        – VLAZ
        1 hour ago










      • $begingroup$
        And somebody at some point would look just a little bit into this mass exodus from the country and see that, gee, the army is getting depleted.
        $endgroup$
        – VLAZ
        1 hour ago



















      1












      $begingroup$

      Infiltration might work for small targets, but a whole country is too big of a chop for it to work alone.



      First of all, if you want to be secretive, you cannot board 500000 soldiers on the smallest number of flights, so you would have to dilute them among normal passengers. Let's say you use 50 soldiers per flight. It takes 10000 flights to carry the entire group, and assuming you fly to the major 3 cities, with a flight every day, it will take you a bit more than 9 years just to infiltrate them.



      Then you need to provide them logistic support: they will have to be provided weapons, instructions, means of sustaining, a believable façade to ensure they can stay that long in a foreign country without looking too suspicious and without leaking any info outside or defecting. Oh, of course you need that façade also before they depart. Formally they never worked for the army (and I doubt your own government will be happy with having 500000 secret soldiers).



      Then, when the day X comes, you cannot hope for them to take over the country without giving them some sort of support: air supremacy is a must in modern warfare, and you have infiltrated only soldiers.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$





















        0












        $begingroup$

        Even the United States (a very large, immigrant nation) has a total of about a million immigrants per year and the biggest single sending country (Mexico) sends less than 200,000 per year. While you may be able to send a small group of elite soldiers this way, anything like a full-scale invasion army would be pretty obvious.



        It would also be very hard to maintain discipline among troops that are not constantly living together. In a group of hundreds of thousands there is bound to be a few that would fall in love or find religion or go over to the the enemy or get drunk and blab about the invasion.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$













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          5 Answers
          5






          active

          oldest

          votes








          5 Answers
          5






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          4












          $begingroup$

          Russia has one of the most liberal immigration policies in the world (a measure Putin's government implemented to counteract its plummeting population due to demographics), but a half-million people in a short period of time is a bit excessive. Still, somewhat theoretically possible.



          There are two problems you're going to have to deal with. Russia has one of the strictest gun control regimes on the planet. Aside from shotguns and rifles that people in the rural area have limited permission (note: not right) to possess, there are no legal privately owned firearms. So where this army getting its weapons? And where are they keeping them?



          The second issue is maintaining secrecy. There's actually math that can be used to calculate how long a secret can be kept before it can be expected to get out.




          On the Viability of Conspiratorial Beliefs



          Conspiratorial ideation is the tendency of individuals to believe that
          events and power relations are secretly manipulated by certain
          clandestine groups and organisations. Many of these ostensibly
          explanatory conjectures are non-falsifiable, lacking in evidence or
          demonstrably false, yet public acceptance remains high. Efforts to
          convince the general public of the validity of medical and scientific
          findings can be hampered by such narratives, which can create the
          impression of doubt or disagreement in areas where the science is well
          established. Conversely, historical examples of exposed conspiracies
          do exist and it may be difficult for people to differentiate between
          reasonable and dubious assertions. In this work, we establish a simple
          mathematical model for conspiracies involving multiple actors with
          time, which yields failure probability for any given conspiracy.
          Parameters for the model are estimated from literature examples of
          known scandals, and the factors influencing conspiracy success and
          failure are explored. The model is also used to estimate the
          likelihood of claims from some commonly-held conspiratorial beliefs;
          these are namely that the moon-landings were faked, climate-change is
          a hoax, vaccination is dangerous and that a cure for cancer is being
          suppressed by vested interests. Simulations of these claims predict
          that intrinsic failure would be imminent even with the most generous
          estimates for the secret-keeping ability of active participants—the
          results of this model suggest that large conspiracies (≥1000 agents)
          quickly become untenable and prone to failure. The theory presented
          here might be useful in counteracting the potentially deleterious
          consequences of bogus and anti-science narratives, and examining the
          hypothetical conditions under which sustainable conspiracy might be
          possible.



          https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147905




          TLDR version: the more people involved, the faster someone will blow it. Using some of the examples in the article, counting just the 500,000 soldiers it will be a near certainty the operation will be blown in under 3 years. There's 50% odds it will be blown within one year. And that doesn't count the people staying at home who know about the operation.



          So, realistically, no.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$


















            4












            $begingroup$

            Russia has one of the most liberal immigration policies in the world (a measure Putin's government implemented to counteract its plummeting population due to demographics), but a half-million people in a short period of time is a bit excessive. Still, somewhat theoretically possible.



            There are two problems you're going to have to deal with. Russia has one of the strictest gun control regimes on the planet. Aside from shotguns and rifles that people in the rural area have limited permission (note: not right) to possess, there are no legal privately owned firearms. So where this army getting its weapons? And where are they keeping them?



            The second issue is maintaining secrecy. There's actually math that can be used to calculate how long a secret can be kept before it can be expected to get out.




            On the Viability of Conspiratorial Beliefs



            Conspiratorial ideation is the tendency of individuals to believe that
            events and power relations are secretly manipulated by certain
            clandestine groups and organisations. Many of these ostensibly
            explanatory conjectures are non-falsifiable, lacking in evidence or
            demonstrably false, yet public acceptance remains high. Efforts to
            convince the general public of the validity of medical and scientific
            findings can be hampered by such narratives, which can create the
            impression of doubt or disagreement in areas where the science is well
            established. Conversely, historical examples of exposed conspiracies
            do exist and it may be difficult for people to differentiate between
            reasonable and dubious assertions. In this work, we establish a simple
            mathematical model for conspiracies involving multiple actors with
            time, which yields failure probability for any given conspiracy.
            Parameters for the model are estimated from literature examples of
            known scandals, and the factors influencing conspiracy success and
            failure are explored. The model is also used to estimate the
            likelihood of claims from some commonly-held conspiratorial beliefs;
            these are namely that the moon-landings were faked, climate-change is
            a hoax, vaccination is dangerous and that a cure for cancer is being
            suppressed by vested interests. Simulations of these claims predict
            that intrinsic failure would be imminent even with the most generous
            estimates for the secret-keeping ability of active participants—the
            results of this model suggest that large conspiracies (≥1000 agents)
            quickly become untenable and prone to failure. The theory presented
            here might be useful in counteracting the potentially deleterious
            consequences of bogus and anti-science narratives, and examining the
            hypothetical conditions under which sustainable conspiracy might be
            possible.



            https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147905




            TLDR version: the more people involved, the faster someone will blow it. Using some of the examples in the article, counting just the 500,000 soldiers it will be a near certainty the operation will be blown in under 3 years. There's 50% odds it will be blown within one year. And that doesn't count the people staying at home who know about the operation.



            So, realistically, no.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$
















              4












              4








              4





              $begingroup$

              Russia has one of the most liberal immigration policies in the world (a measure Putin's government implemented to counteract its plummeting population due to demographics), but a half-million people in a short period of time is a bit excessive. Still, somewhat theoretically possible.



              There are two problems you're going to have to deal with. Russia has one of the strictest gun control regimes on the planet. Aside from shotguns and rifles that people in the rural area have limited permission (note: not right) to possess, there are no legal privately owned firearms. So where this army getting its weapons? And where are they keeping them?



              The second issue is maintaining secrecy. There's actually math that can be used to calculate how long a secret can be kept before it can be expected to get out.




              On the Viability of Conspiratorial Beliefs



              Conspiratorial ideation is the tendency of individuals to believe that
              events and power relations are secretly manipulated by certain
              clandestine groups and organisations. Many of these ostensibly
              explanatory conjectures are non-falsifiable, lacking in evidence or
              demonstrably false, yet public acceptance remains high. Efforts to
              convince the general public of the validity of medical and scientific
              findings can be hampered by such narratives, which can create the
              impression of doubt or disagreement in areas where the science is well
              established. Conversely, historical examples of exposed conspiracies
              do exist and it may be difficult for people to differentiate between
              reasonable and dubious assertions. In this work, we establish a simple
              mathematical model for conspiracies involving multiple actors with
              time, which yields failure probability for any given conspiracy.
              Parameters for the model are estimated from literature examples of
              known scandals, and the factors influencing conspiracy success and
              failure are explored. The model is also used to estimate the
              likelihood of claims from some commonly-held conspiratorial beliefs;
              these are namely that the moon-landings were faked, climate-change is
              a hoax, vaccination is dangerous and that a cure for cancer is being
              suppressed by vested interests. Simulations of these claims predict
              that intrinsic failure would be imminent even with the most generous
              estimates for the secret-keeping ability of active participants—the
              results of this model suggest that large conspiracies (≥1000 agents)
              quickly become untenable and prone to failure. The theory presented
              here might be useful in counteracting the potentially deleterious
              consequences of bogus and anti-science narratives, and examining the
              hypothetical conditions under which sustainable conspiracy might be
              possible.



              https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147905




              TLDR version: the more people involved, the faster someone will blow it. Using some of the examples in the article, counting just the 500,000 soldiers it will be a near certainty the operation will be blown in under 3 years. There's 50% odds it will be blown within one year. And that doesn't count the people staying at home who know about the operation.



              So, realistically, no.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              Russia has one of the most liberal immigration policies in the world (a measure Putin's government implemented to counteract its plummeting population due to demographics), but a half-million people in a short period of time is a bit excessive. Still, somewhat theoretically possible.



              There are two problems you're going to have to deal with. Russia has one of the strictest gun control regimes on the planet. Aside from shotguns and rifles that people in the rural area have limited permission (note: not right) to possess, there are no legal privately owned firearms. So where this army getting its weapons? And where are they keeping them?



              The second issue is maintaining secrecy. There's actually math that can be used to calculate how long a secret can be kept before it can be expected to get out.




              On the Viability of Conspiratorial Beliefs



              Conspiratorial ideation is the tendency of individuals to believe that
              events and power relations are secretly manipulated by certain
              clandestine groups and organisations. Many of these ostensibly
              explanatory conjectures are non-falsifiable, lacking in evidence or
              demonstrably false, yet public acceptance remains high. Efforts to
              convince the general public of the validity of medical and scientific
              findings can be hampered by such narratives, which can create the
              impression of doubt or disagreement in areas where the science is well
              established. Conversely, historical examples of exposed conspiracies
              do exist and it may be difficult for people to differentiate between
              reasonable and dubious assertions. In this work, we establish a simple
              mathematical model for conspiracies involving multiple actors with
              time, which yields failure probability for any given conspiracy.
              Parameters for the model are estimated from literature examples of
              known scandals, and the factors influencing conspiracy success and
              failure are explored. The model is also used to estimate the
              likelihood of claims from some commonly-held conspiratorial beliefs;
              these are namely that the moon-landings were faked, climate-change is
              a hoax, vaccination is dangerous and that a cure for cancer is being
              suppressed by vested interests. Simulations of these claims predict
              that intrinsic failure would be imminent even with the most generous
              estimates for the secret-keeping ability of active participants—the
              results of this model suggest that large conspiracies (≥1000 agents)
              quickly become untenable and prone to failure. The theory presented
              here might be useful in counteracting the potentially deleterious
              consequences of bogus and anti-science narratives, and examining the
              hypothetical conditions under which sustainable conspiracy might be
              possible.



              https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147905




              TLDR version: the more people involved, the faster someone will blow it. Using some of the examples in the article, counting just the 500,000 soldiers it will be a near certainty the operation will be blown in under 3 years. There's 50% odds it will be blown within one year. And that doesn't count the people staying at home who know about the operation.



              So, realistically, no.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 1 hour ago









              Keith MorrisonKeith Morrison

              6,3101925




              6,3101925























                  3












                  $begingroup$

                  Short answer is no, but the longer answer is far more interesting.



                  First of all, if you're looking at a simple, knock down, drag out fight with the military in question, let's assume you need equal numbers to the military in question.



                  There is a really cool graph out of the world bank that shows the percentages of population in the military across the world, and by country, over time. The current average is around 0.9%, but let's assume that you want to get 1% of Russia's population being made up of your fifth column.



                  Russia's population is currently around 145m, meaning you need 1.4m, maybe 1.5m sleepers in the country. Based on some statistics I pulled off the internet, in 2017 Russia admitted around 250k immigrants that year.



                  Based on this model, assuming you can take EVERY immigration place in the Russian admission program, it's still going to take you 6 years to embed your sleeper force.



                  BUT; if you want an army and not a network of terror cells, you also need equipment. You need guns (of course), possibly tanks, planes, missiles, and LOTS of computers. You need infrastructure like training bases, etc. Otherwise, all you're doing is engaging in a guerrilla war in the streets, and that's still going to need lots and lots of small arms.



                  BUT; you also need a plan. Just going street to street and taking the country is (in a word) dumb. You want to take critical infrastructure, especially communication infrastructure, and neutralise your enemy's capacity to fight back. That means taking their bases et al. For that, you really want to embed your army in their army.



                  That means infiltration, having kids that are born in Russia, and getting them ALL to join the military. That's on average a 30 year investment or so to get the outcome you're after.



                  I'd argue that there's more efficient ways to do it, but it does have one single benefit that ties in nicely with Sun Tzu; you'd have your army literally living off the enemy lands once you've started your covert invasion.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$


















                    3












                    $begingroup$

                    Short answer is no, but the longer answer is far more interesting.



                    First of all, if you're looking at a simple, knock down, drag out fight with the military in question, let's assume you need equal numbers to the military in question.



                    There is a really cool graph out of the world bank that shows the percentages of population in the military across the world, and by country, over time. The current average is around 0.9%, but let's assume that you want to get 1% of Russia's population being made up of your fifth column.



                    Russia's population is currently around 145m, meaning you need 1.4m, maybe 1.5m sleepers in the country. Based on some statistics I pulled off the internet, in 2017 Russia admitted around 250k immigrants that year.



                    Based on this model, assuming you can take EVERY immigration place in the Russian admission program, it's still going to take you 6 years to embed your sleeper force.



                    BUT; if you want an army and not a network of terror cells, you also need equipment. You need guns (of course), possibly tanks, planes, missiles, and LOTS of computers. You need infrastructure like training bases, etc. Otherwise, all you're doing is engaging in a guerrilla war in the streets, and that's still going to need lots and lots of small arms.



                    BUT; you also need a plan. Just going street to street and taking the country is (in a word) dumb. You want to take critical infrastructure, especially communication infrastructure, and neutralise your enemy's capacity to fight back. That means taking their bases et al. For that, you really want to embed your army in their army.



                    That means infiltration, having kids that are born in Russia, and getting them ALL to join the military. That's on average a 30 year investment or so to get the outcome you're after.



                    I'd argue that there's more efficient ways to do it, but it does have one single benefit that ties in nicely with Sun Tzu; you'd have your army literally living off the enemy lands once you've started your covert invasion.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$
















                      3












                      3








                      3





                      $begingroup$

                      Short answer is no, but the longer answer is far more interesting.



                      First of all, if you're looking at a simple, knock down, drag out fight with the military in question, let's assume you need equal numbers to the military in question.



                      There is a really cool graph out of the world bank that shows the percentages of population in the military across the world, and by country, over time. The current average is around 0.9%, but let's assume that you want to get 1% of Russia's population being made up of your fifth column.



                      Russia's population is currently around 145m, meaning you need 1.4m, maybe 1.5m sleepers in the country. Based on some statistics I pulled off the internet, in 2017 Russia admitted around 250k immigrants that year.



                      Based on this model, assuming you can take EVERY immigration place in the Russian admission program, it's still going to take you 6 years to embed your sleeper force.



                      BUT; if you want an army and not a network of terror cells, you also need equipment. You need guns (of course), possibly tanks, planes, missiles, and LOTS of computers. You need infrastructure like training bases, etc. Otherwise, all you're doing is engaging in a guerrilla war in the streets, and that's still going to need lots and lots of small arms.



                      BUT; you also need a plan. Just going street to street and taking the country is (in a word) dumb. You want to take critical infrastructure, especially communication infrastructure, and neutralise your enemy's capacity to fight back. That means taking their bases et al. For that, you really want to embed your army in their army.



                      That means infiltration, having kids that are born in Russia, and getting them ALL to join the military. That's on average a 30 year investment or so to get the outcome you're after.



                      I'd argue that there's more efficient ways to do it, but it does have one single benefit that ties in nicely with Sun Tzu; you'd have your army literally living off the enemy lands once you've started your covert invasion.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      Short answer is no, but the longer answer is far more interesting.



                      First of all, if you're looking at a simple, knock down, drag out fight with the military in question, let's assume you need equal numbers to the military in question.



                      There is a really cool graph out of the world bank that shows the percentages of population in the military across the world, and by country, over time. The current average is around 0.9%, but let's assume that you want to get 1% of Russia's population being made up of your fifth column.



                      Russia's population is currently around 145m, meaning you need 1.4m, maybe 1.5m sleepers in the country. Based on some statistics I pulled off the internet, in 2017 Russia admitted around 250k immigrants that year.



                      Based on this model, assuming you can take EVERY immigration place in the Russian admission program, it's still going to take you 6 years to embed your sleeper force.



                      BUT; if you want an army and not a network of terror cells, you also need equipment. You need guns (of course), possibly tanks, planes, missiles, and LOTS of computers. You need infrastructure like training bases, etc. Otherwise, all you're doing is engaging in a guerrilla war in the streets, and that's still going to need lots and lots of small arms.



                      BUT; you also need a plan. Just going street to street and taking the country is (in a word) dumb. You want to take critical infrastructure, especially communication infrastructure, and neutralise your enemy's capacity to fight back. That means taking their bases et al. For that, you really want to embed your army in their army.



                      That means infiltration, having kids that are born in Russia, and getting them ALL to join the military. That's on average a 30 year investment or so to get the outcome you're after.



                      I'd argue that there's more efficient ways to do it, but it does have one single benefit that ties in nicely with Sun Tzu; you'd have your army literally living off the enemy lands once you've started your covert invasion.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 1 hour ago









                      Tim B IITim B II

                      30.3k665120




                      30.3k665120























                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          The biggest problem that you're going to face is secrecy



                          I probably don't need to point out that 500,000 people is a large number. Each one of those soldiers is a detection risk. If any one of them acts suspiciously enough to be picked up by the Russian intelligence operations. Even worse, each one of your soldiers is a defection risk.



                          And once you've lost the element of surprise, every part of your plan works against you. Your soldiers are isolated, difficult to contact, and in a foreign country. They'll be easily picked up one by one, and by the time it comes for you to trigger the attack, you'll have no army.



                          Even if every member of your army has ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, you'll still get discovered



                          Wikipedia places the population of temporary migrant workers at about 7 million. That means that 500,000 additional people is about a 7% increase in that count, not exactly a drop in the bucket. Especially since the increase is coming entirely from a single country.



                          Even if some of your soldiers arrive through other channels, you simply can't conceal the movement of that many people, and the powers that be are going to notice. Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$













                          • $begingroup$
                            "Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously." yeah, I was thinking about that in relation to something else. Even assuming your soldiers have ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, they still need to arrive in Russia which includes a background check. So you'd have to have a bunch of people forging documents for them and making up backgrounds. Are all of these people master level forgers and writers, too? Surely even a bad immigration officer in Russia would eventually go "hold on, this doesn't make sense" after seeing a thousand bacckgrounds.
                            $endgroup$
                            – VLAZ
                            1 hour ago










                          • $begingroup$
                            And somebody at some point would look just a little bit into this mass exodus from the country and see that, gee, the army is getting depleted.
                            $endgroup$
                            – VLAZ
                            1 hour ago
















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          The biggest problem that you're going to face is secrecy



                          I probably don't need to point out that 500,000 people is a large number. Each one of those soldiers is a detection risk. If any one of them acts suspiciously enough to be picked up by the Russian intelligence operations. Even worse, each one of your soldiers is a defection risk.



                          And once you've lost the element of surprise, every part of your plan works against you. Your soldiers are isolated, difficult to contact, and in a foreign country. They'll be easily picked up one by one, and by the time it comes for you to trigger the attack, you'll have no army.



                          Even if every member of your army has ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, you'll still get discovered



                          Wikipedia places the population of temporary migrant workers at about 7 million. That means that 500,000 additional people is about a 7% increase in that count, not exactly a drop in the bucket. Especially since the increase is coming entirely from a single country.



                          Even if some of your soldiers arrive through other channels, you simply can't conceal the movement of that many people, and the powers that be are going to notice. Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$













                          • $begingroup$
                            "Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously." yeah, I was thinking about that in relation to something else. Even assuming your soldiers have ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, they still need to arrive in Russia which includes a background check. So you'd have to have a bunch of people forging documents for them and making up backgrounds. Are all of these people master level forgers and writers, too? Surely even a bad immigration officer in Russia would eventually go "hold on, this doesn't make sense" after seeing a thousand bacckgrounds.
                            $endgroup$
                            – VLAZ
                            1 hour ago










                          • $begingroup$
                            And somebody at some point would look just a little bit into this mass exodus from the country and see that, gee, the army is getting depleted.
                            $endgroup$
                            – VLAZ
                            1 hour ago














                          1












                          1








                          1





                          $begingroup$

                          The biggest problem that you're going to face is secrecy



                          I probably don't need to point out that 500,000 people is a large number. Each one of those soldiers is a detection risk. If any one of them acts suspiciously enough to be picked up by the Russian intelligence operations. Even worse, each one of your soldiers is a defection risk.



                          And once you've lost the element of surprise, every part of your plan works against you. Your soldiers are isolated, difficult to contact, and in a foreign country. They'll be easily picked up one by one, and by the time it comes for you to trigger the attack, you'll have no army.



                          Even if every member of your army has ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, you'll still get discovered



                          Wikipedia places the population of temporary migrant workers at about 7 million. That means that 500,000 additional people is about a 7% increase in that count, not exactly a drop in the bucket. Especially since the increase is coming entirely from a single country.



                          Even if some of your soldiers arrive through other channels, you simply can't conceal the movement of that many people, and the powers that be are going to notice. Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$



                          The biggest problem that you're going to face is secrecy



                          I probably don't need to point out that 500,000 people is a large number. Each one of those soldiers is a detection risk. If any one of them acts suspiciously enough to be picked up by the Russian intelligence operations. Even worse, each one of your soldiers is a defection risk.



                          And once you've lost the element of surprise, every part of your plan works against you. Your soldiers are isolated, difficult to contact, and in a foreign country. They'll be easily picked up one by one, and by the time it comes for you to trigger the attack, you'll have no army.



                          Even if every member of your army has ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, you'll still get discovered



                          Wikipedia places the population of temporary migrant workers at about 7 million. That means that 500,000 additional people is about a 7% increase in that count, not exactly a drop in the bucket. Especially since the increase is coming entirely from a single country.



                          Even if some of your soldiers arrive through other channels, you simply can't conceal the movement of that many people, and the powers that be are going to notice. Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously.







                          share|improve this answer












                          share|improve this answer



                          share|improve this answer










                          answered 1 hour ago









                          Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus

                          4,7971623




                          4,7971623












                          • $begingroup$
                            "Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously." yeah, I was thinking about that in relation to something else. Even assuming your soldiers have ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, they still need to arrive in Russia which includes a background check. So you'd have to have a bunch of people forging documents for them and making up backgrounds. Are all of these people master level forgers and writers, too? Surely even a bad immigration officer in Russia would eventually go "hold on, this doesn't make sense" after seeing a thousand bacckgrounds.
                            $endgroup$
                            – VLAZ
                            1 hour ago










                          • $begingroup$
                            And somebody at some point would look just a little bit into this mass exodus from the country and see that, gee, the army is getting depleted.
                            $endgroup$
                            – VLAZ
                            1 hour ago


















                          • $begingroup$
                            "Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously." yeah, I was thinking about that in relation to something else. Even assuming your soldiers have ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, they still need to arrive in Russia which includes a background check. So you'd have to have a bunch of people forging documents for them and making up backgrounds. Are all of these people master level forgers and writers, too? Surely even a bad immigration officer in Russia would eventually go "hold on, this doesn't make sense" after seeing a thousand bacckgrounds.
                            $endgroup$
                            – VLAZ
                            1 hour ago










                          • $begingroup$
                            And somebody at some point would look just a little bit into this mass exodus from the country and see that, gee, the army is getting depleted.
                            $endgroup$
                            – VLAZ
                            1 hour ago
















                          $begingroup$
                          "Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously." yeah, I was thinking about that in relation to something else. Even assuming your soldiers have ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, they still need to arrive in Russia which includes a background check. So you'd have to have a bunch of people forging documents for them and making up backgrounds. Are all of these people master level forgers and writers, too? Surely even a bad immigration officer in Russia would eventually go "hold on, this doesn't make sense" after seeing a thousand bacckgrounds.
                          $endgroup$
                          – VLAZ
                          1 hour ago




                          $begingroup$
                          "Especially when they notice that your armed forces are vanishing mysteriously." yeah, I was thinking about that in relation to something else. Even assuming your soldiers have ironclad loyalty and master level acting skills, they still need to arrive in Russia which includes a background check. So you'd have to have a bunch of people forging documents for them and making up backgrounds. Are all of these people master level forgers and writers, too? Surely even a bad immigration officer in Russia would eventually go "hold on, this doesn't make sense" after seeing a thousand bacckgrounds.
                          $endgroup$
                          – VLAZ
                          1 hour ago












                          $begingroup$
                          And somebody at some point would look just a little bit into this mass exodus from the country and see that, gee, the army is getting depleted.
                          $endgroup$
                          – VLAZ
                          1 hour ago




                          $begingroup$
                          And somebody at some point would look just a little bit into this mass exodus from the country and see that, gee, the army is getting depleted.
                          $endgroup$
                          – VLAZ
                          1 hour ago











                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          Infiltration might work for small targets, but a whole country is too big of a chop for it to work alone.



                          First of all, if you want to be secretive, you cannot board 500000 soldiers on the smallest number of flights, so you would have to dilute them among normal passengers. Let's say you use 50 soldiers per flight. It takes 10000 flights to carry the entire group, and assuming you fly to the major 3 cities, with a flight every day, it will take you a bit more than 9 years just to infiltrate them.



                          Then you need to provide them logistic support: they will have to be provided weapons, instructions, means of sustaining, a believable façade to ensure they can stay that long in a foreign country without looking too suspicious and without leaking any info outside or defecting. Oh, of course you need that façade also before they depart. Formally they never worked for the army (and I doubt your own government will be happy with having 500000 secret soldiers).



                          Then, when the day X comes, you cannot hope for them to take over the country without giving them some sort of support: air supremacy is a must in modern warfare, and you have infiltrated only soldiers.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$


















                            1












                            $begingroup$

                            Infiltration might work for small targets, but a whole country is too big of a chop for it to work alone.



                            First of all, if you want to be secretive, you cannot board 500000 soldiers on the smallest number of flights, so you would have to dilute them among normal passengers. Let's say you use 50 soldiers per flight. It takes 10000 flights to carry the entire group, and assuming you fly to the major 3 cities, with a flight every day, it will take you a bit more than 9 years just to infiltrate them.



                            Then you need to provide them logistic support: they will have to be provided weapons, instructions, means of sustaining, a believable façade to ensure they can stay that long in a foreign country without looking too suspicious and without leaking any info outside or defecting. Oh, of course you need that façade also before they depart. Formally they never worked for the army (and I doubt your own government will be happy with having 500000 secret soldiers).



                            Then, when the day X comes, you cannot hope for them to take over the country without giving them some sort of support: air supremacy is a must in modern warfare, and you have infiltrated only soldiers.






                            share|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$
















                              1












                              1








                              1





                              $begingroup$

                              Infiltration might work for small targets, but a whole country is too big of a chop for it to work alone.



                              First of all, if you want to be secretive, you cannot board 500000 soldiers on the smallest number of flights, so you would have to dilute them among normal passengers. Let's say you use 50 soldiers per flight. It takes 10000 flights to carry the entire group, and assuming you fly to the major 3 cities, with a flight every day, it will take you a bit more than 9 years just to infiltrate them.



                              Then you need to provide them logistic support: they will have to be provided weapons, instructions, means of sustaining, a believable façade to ensure they can stay that long in a foreign country without looking too suspicious and without leaking any info outside or defecting. Oh, of course you need that façade also before they depart. Formally they never worked for the army (and I doubt your own government will be happy with having 500000 secret soldiers).



                              Then, when the day X comes, you cannot hope for them to take over the country without giving them some sort of support: air supremacy is a must in modern warfare, and you have infiltrated only soldiers.






                              share|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$



                              Infiltration might work for small targets, but a whole country is too big of a chop for it to work alone.



                              First of all, if you want to be secretive, you cannot board 500000 soldiers on the smallest number of flights, so you would have to dilute them among normal passengers. Let's say you use 50 soldiers per flight. It takes 10000 flights to carry the entire group, and assuming you fly to the major 3 cities, with a flight every day, it will take you a bit more than 9 years just to infiltrate them.



                              Then you need to provide them logistic support: they will have to be provided weapons, instructions, means of sustaining, a believable façade to ensure they can stay that long in a foreign country without looking too suspicious and without leaking any info outside or defecting. Oh, of course you need that façade also before they depart. Formally they never worked for the army (and I doubt your own government will be happy with having 500000 secret soldiers).



                              Then, when the day X comes, you cannot hope for them to take over the country without giving them some sort of support: air supremacy is a must in modern warfare, and you have infiltrated only soldiers.







                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered 56 mins ago









                              L.DutchL.Dutch

                              86.2k29201421




                              86.2k29201421























                                  0












                                  $begingroup$

                                  Even the United States (a very large, immigrant nation) has a total of about a million immigrants per year and the biggest single sending country (Mexico) sends less than 200,000 per year. While you may be able to send a small group of elite soldiers this way, anything like a full-scale invasion army would be pretty obvious.



                                  It would also be very hard to maintain discipline among troops that are not constantly living together. In a group of hundreds of thousands there is bound to be a few that would fall in love or find religion or go over to the the enemy or get drunk and blab about the invasion.






                                  share|improve this answer











                                  $endgroup$


















                                    0












                                    $begingroup$

                                    Even the United States (a very large, immigrant nation) has a total of about a million immigrants per year and the biggest single sending country (Mexico) sends less than 200,000 per year. While you may be able to send a small group of elite soldiers this way, anything like a full-scale invasion army would be pretty obvious.



                                    It would also be very hard to maintain discipline among troops that are not constantly living together. In a group of hundreds of thousands there is bound to be a few that would fall in love or find religion or go over to the the enemy or get drunk and blab about the invasion.






                                    share|improve this answer











                                    $endgroup$
















                                      0












                                      0








                                      0





                                      $begingroup$

                                      Even the United States (a very large, immigrant nation) has a total of about a million immigrants per year and the biggest single sending country (Mexico) sends less than 200,000 per year. While you may be able to send a small group of elite soldiers this way, anything like a full-scale invasion army would be pretty obvious.



                                      It would also be very hard to maintain discipline among troops that are not constantly living together. In a group of hundreds of thousands there is bound to be a few that would fall in love or find religion or go over to the the enemy or get drunk and blab about the invasion.






                                      share|improve this answer











                                      $endgroup$



                                      Even the United States (a very large, immigrant nation) has a total of about a million immigrants per year and the biggest single sending country (Mexico) sends less than 200,000 per year. While you may be able to send a small group of elite soldiers this way, anything like a full-scale invasion army would be pretty obvious.



                                      It would also be very hard to maintain discipline among troops that are not constantly living together. In a group of hundreds of thousands there is bound to be a few that would fall in love or find religion or go over to the the enemy or get drunk and blab about the invasion.







                                      share|improve this answer














                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer








                                      edited 5 mins ago

























                                      answered 15 mins ago









                                      smatterersmatterer

                                      1,819210




                                      1,819210






























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