Should I be expected to insure hardware belonging to my employer when going on a personal trip?












42














I work remotely. I'm soon off abroad for a few months and will continue to work remotely while I'm away, taking the company laptop and possibly other similar hardware with me to perform my duties. The trip is my own choice.



My employer has asked if I could insure the hardware through my travel insurance, saying that he doubts the company policy will cover the USA (we're based in the UK).



As the hardware itself does not belong to me and is needed to fulfil my job (without any clauses covering insurance in my contract), is this something I can reasonably be expected to do?










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  • 1




    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Snow
    4 hours ago










  • What would happen if someone broke into your home and stole the laptop, assuming you work remotely from home? Why isn't the employer worried about that?
    – MPW
    2 hours ago










  • @MPW "... he doubts the company policy will cover the USA (we're based in the UK)"
    – David Schwartz
    1 hour ago










  • @DavidSchwartz : Fair enough, +1.
    – MPW
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    As a point of clarification - are they asking you to insure it and they reimburse you? Or are they asking you to insure it and foot the bill yourself.
    – corsiKa
    1 hour ago
















42














I work remotely. I'm soon off abroad for a few months and will continue to work remotely while I'm away, taking the company laptop and possibly other similar hardware with me to perform my duties. The trip is my own choice.



My employer has asked if I could insure the hardware through my travel insurance, saying that he doubts the company policy will cover the USA (we're based in the UK).



As the hardware itself does not belong to me and is needed to fulfil my job (without any clauses covering insurance in my contract), is this something I can reasonably be expected to do?










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  • 1




    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Snow
    4 hours ago










  • What would happen if someone broke into your home and stole the laptop, assuming you work remotely from home? Why isn't the employer worried about that?
    – MPW
    2 hours ago










  • @MPW "... he doubts the company policy will cover the USA (we're based in the UK)"
    – David Schwartz
    1 hour ago










  • @DavidSchwartz : Fair enough, +1.
    – MPW
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    As a point of clarification - are they asking you to insure it and they reimburse you? Or are they asking you to insure it and foot the bill yourself.
    – corsiKa
    1 hour ago














42












42








42







I work remotely. I'm soon off abroad for a few months and will continue to work remotely while I'm away, taking the company laptop and possibly other similar hardware with me to perform my duties. The trip is my own choice.



My employer has asked if I could insure the hardware through my travel insurance, saying that he doubts the company policy will cover the USA (we're based in the UK).



As the hardware itself does not belong to me and is needed to fulfil my job (without any clauses covering insurance in my contract), is this something I can reasonably be expected to do?










share|improve this question









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GroomedGorilla is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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I work remotely. I'm soon off abroad for a few months and will continue to work remotely while I'm away, taking the company laptop and possibly other similar hardware with me to perform my duties. The trip is my own choice.



My employer has asked if I could insure the hardware through my travel insurance, saying that he doubts the company policy will cover the USA (we're based in the UK).



As the hardware itself does not belong to me and is needed to fulfil my job (without any clauses covering insurance in my contract), is this something I can reasonably be expected to do?







telecommute travel insurance hardware






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edited 7 hours ago









David Richerby

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asked yesterday









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  • 1




    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Snow
    4 hours ago










  • What would happen if someone broke into your home and stole the laptop, assuming you work remotely from home? Why isn't the employer worried about that?
    – MPW
    2 hours ago










  • @MPW "... he doubts the company policy will cover the USA (we're based in the UK)"
    – David Schwartz
    1 hour ago










  • @DavidSchwartz : Fair enough, +1.
    – MPW
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    As a point of clarification - are they asking you to insure it and they reimburse you? Or are they asking you to insure it and foot the bill yourself.
    – corsiKa
    1 hour ago














  • 1




    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Snow
    4 hours ago










  • What would happen if someone broke into your home and stole the laptop, assuming you work remotely from home? Why isn't the employer worried about that?
    – MPW
    2 hours ago










  • @MPW "... he doubts the company policy will cover the USA (we're based in the UK)"
    – David Schwartz
    1 hour ago










  • @DavidSchwartz : Fair enough, +1.
    – MPW
    1 hour ago






  • 1




    As a point of clarification - are they asking you to insure it and they reimburse you? Or are they asking you to insure it and foot the bill yourself.
    – corsiKa
    1 hour ago








1




1




Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Snow
4 hours ago




Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Snow
4 hours ago












What would happen if someone broke into your home and stole the laptop, assuming you work remotely from home? Why isn't the employer worried about that?
– MPW
2 hours ago




What would happen if someone broke into your home and stole the laptop, assuming you work remotely from home? Why isn't the employer worried about that?
– MPW
2 hours ago












@MPW "... he doubts the company policy will cover the USA (we're based in the UK)"
– David Schwartz
1 hour ago




@MPW "... he doubts the company policy will cover the USA (we're based in the UK)"
– David Schwartz
1 hour ago












@DavidSchwartz : Fair enough, +1.
– MPW
1 hour ago




@DavidSchwartz : Fair enough, +1.
– MPW
1 hour ago




1




1




As a point of clarification - are they asking you to insure it and they reimburse you? Or are they asking you to insure it and foot the bill yourself.
– corsiKa
1 hour ago




As a point of clarification - are they asking you to insure it and they reimburse you? Or are they asking you to insure it and foot the bill yourself.
– corsiKa
1 hour ago










9 Answers
9






active

oldest

votes


















62














Firstly, check if your travel insurance covers business, or if it's just a tourist coverage.



Secondly... I'd be a bit suspicious of any company that requires me to insure their own property (you can't buy insurance on an item that you don't have any financial interest in), or any company that can't self-insure something as cheap as a laptop (even a Macbook Pro is pretty cheap in the scheme of things).






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  • 9




    I don't think travel insurance covers your stuff, just the cost of your trip should you get sick or there be some adverse situation where you are visiting that resulted in flights or hotel cancellations. Your stuff is usually covered under your own insurance as part of your renters or homeowners coverage. That usually has a deductible and if home, will likely be higher than the cost of the computer. The employer is really saying here if something happens to our stuff while you are traveling for pleasure it's on you to replace.
    – Bill Leeper
    yesterday






  • 2




    @BillLeeper My travel insurance does cover items getting lost/damaged while travelling. My homeowners coverage does not.
    – Abigail
    23 hours ago






  • 8




    This is an unusual situation since the trip is not a business trip but a personal trip the OP wants to work on, presumably to avoid taking the time as annual leave - the employer could equally say "if you don't take out insurance, you need to leave your laptop at home and take the time as annual leave instead". Which is best is left for the OP to decide...
    – Moo
    16 hours ago






  • 8




    Please note that trip was OP idea, not company. Company insured hardware for domestic use and domestic use is what it wants from OP. Company is doing him a favor it does not need to do and only ask him to make sure it won't cost them. What's suspicious about that?
    – Mołot
    10 hours ago








  • 1




    @corsiKa Fewer heads isn't the whole story. In a large company, the average rate at which things happen is probably a meaningful measure; in a small company, things are much more stochastic. In a large company, you might need to replace, say, ten stolen laptops a year on average, which is a small cost averaged over all employees and it's staggeringly unlikely that you'll have to replace 100 stolen laptops in one year. But in a small company, the number of stolen laptops per year will be either zero or one and the years where it's "one" are way more than average and a big-ish cost per employee.
    – David Richerby
    10 hours ago





















43














You have a little bit outside the box problem here.




  1. You are voluntarily traveling, this is not for business, but yourself.

  2. The company wants to minimize the obvious risk of losing their equipment while you are jetting around the world (their view, not yours)

  3. Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.


You need to have a conversation with your manager. Indicate that since the equipment belongs to the company and not yourself, you will be unable to obtain any insurance coverage for it on your own. If they would like to obtain additional coverage than what they normally carry, then you could have a discussion about having that additional expense reduced from your salary.



In summary this is how I see it.




  1. You are voluntarily making this trip, it is not business related or directed.

  2. The company owns the equipment though, so they need to make whatever arrangements they see fit.

  3. You will have to decide if you can accept what they come up with or work out your own plan.


Additionally if you were to buy your own equipment and use it for work while traveling you would need to additionally indicate with the insurance company that you are using this equipment for work, they may reject a claim at some point if you did not indicate this.



This will NOT be travel insurance, that is for if you get sick etc. and have to cancel your trip. You need to look into a 'personal articles' policy (US terminology your local agent can help you determine the right UK coverage). This is insurance that covers a specific item. I have it on several computers, my wife's expensive jewelry and a few other items easily lost, damaged, or stolen.






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  • 31




    "Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.". That seems too general a statement. I buy car insurance for rental cars and I certainly don't own the car (and I don't have to use the insurance the renting agency offers, so it's not just a deal with the company itself). Now whether there exists any insurance for this particular case is a different question, but there's certainly no point blank reason for such a insurance impossible to exist.
    – Voo
    yesterday






  • 5




    In the UK travel insurance routinely covers personal effects taken with you, at least for theft or loss outside your control.
    – patstew
    yesterday






  • 10




    @Voo: Just checked this for my country (Belgium), and I can buy (extra) insurance that will also cover goods that I rent or borrow (as a private person, so goods from my employer are probably not covered). So it's certainly not impossible.
    – Jan Fabry
    yesterday






  • 3




    @Bill No I don't necessarily buy car insurance from the rental company and it still works just fine. And sure the insurance company only pays the parts that aren't covered by other insurance, but that's quite common for many other insurances as well (I have a national and a private health insurance - is my private insurance now not an insurance any more because it only covers the parts that are not paid by the national one?). And as Jan mentioned he already found examples of being able to insure non-owned property, so clearly this is not just academic.
    – Voo
    yesterday






  • 3




    @Voo this seems a bit like liability insurance in the car case., That is you don't insure the care but rather insure yourself against being liable for damages you cause to the car. Same way my uni required chemistry students to have an insurance for accidental harm caused to others or equipment damage. Where I live the umbrella term is "civilian liability" or some such.
    – Jan Dorniak
    23 hours ago



















23














It's a tricky issue.




  1. The "overseas" aspect is not relevant. The issue at hand is just, "Do you have to pay for accidental damage to equipment the company supplied." This would apply whether you broke it in your house, commuting, in Patagonia or indeed even at the office.


  2. My personal view is that the company just has to suck it up and pay.


  3. Particularly in the wildly-paid, go-go world of software today ... it's hard to see that you can make a programmer do .. well, anything.


  4. For me personally (only one example) if one of the folks smashes something or loses it, I just sigh, click to Amazon, and hand out another one :/ What are we gonna do, fire them and spend 3 months / 50k finding another expert in some obscure field?


  5. Then again - I know that some companies policies is "Wow! We give you $2800 a year against equipment costs!" (you see this sort of blather in a few job ads on OS, from companies trying to hire programmers cheap) In that case, it would probably be reasonable that "that's it" - if you lose the 2500 bucks, or whatever, it's on you to dig up another laptop.



So one opinion, basically "they should pay in almost all cases"



That being said,




  1. It sounds like you're getting a "sweet deal" from your employer - they are letting you work remotely while you fool around in the US? If so .. my gut instinct is to "suck it up".


NOTE: Put it in writing that as a courtesy you will be insuring the laptop when overseas, and do so.




  1. If however the company is "sending you to" the US on a project - then, flooglestick 'em. Of course, obviously, they have to pay the insurance/etc. End of story.




Even more information!




"It's my own choice and they've said they'd have no problem with it (since I work remotely anyway)"




One immediate fact:




  • As a kind of broad general rule, if you work remotely then you pay for your own gear. This is not a firm rule, but it's a general rule.


And then,



Looking again at point (6). I have to say, I would treat this as a point 6 situation. They are being understanding taking the view that "they don't have a problem with it". {Aside: let's see what they say in a month when they realize the time zone issues.} Just one man's opinion then, you should "go the extra mile" and politely cover the danger yourself.



NOTE: Put it in writing that as a courtesy you will be insuring the laptop when overseas, and do so.






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  • 2




    Not sure why you're getting downvoted but I tend to agree with you. If they were sending me then I'd expect them to pay. In this case it's my choice to go abroad, but I'm working remotely here anyway so it likely boils down to a policy that only covers the UK. I suppose I'll look into what extra costs I'd incur to add this to my travel insurance (and possibly a business option for that as @PeteCon suggested). And definitely ALWAYS getting these kind of things in writing
    – GroomedGorilla
    yesterday






  • 4




    It sounds like everyone's on the same page; I'm the #1 "worker's rights" advocate on the site, but unusually here, I do see some value in you "sucking it up" . . . it's a chance for you to overtly and explicitly make it clear that you're "going the extra distance" (on a minor point) since they've done a mild favor for you. Never get in a situation where "you owe them one!"
    – Fattie
    yesterday






  • 1




    Number 6 makes perfect sense. And they could always do what some people do, just smile, nod, agree to do whatever, and then ignore it.
    – Kilisi
    yesterday






  • 1




    I agree with Number 6, and where this seems now to be the case, then that is the correct answer. What insurance to get and how is of course an additional question....
    – Dragonel
    22 hours ago






  • 1




    Why does „work remotely“ imply „paying for your own gear“? In fact I know many company policies strictly forbidding to work with personal computing equipment. (In a home office scenario you might need to pay for some stuff yourself)
    – eckes
    11 hours ago



















5














Given that you already work remotely and the equipment is not already insured, you should not be required to insure this equipment just because you are going to a separate remote location.



If the company would like their equipment insured, they should do it themselves.






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  • 3




    That would be my preferred reasoning, but they're claiming their policy doesn't cover the US. I'm looking into what the added cost of adding it to my travel insurance would be. If it's not significant I think I'll "suck it up" and save the hassle of owing them anything
    – GroomedGorilla
    yesterday










  • The equipment may be insured, but the policy only covers it in the uk.
    – Andy
    20 hours ago






  • 1




    @Andy It may even go further than that - it may cover the equipment while on a business trip to the US, but this isn't a business trip...
    – Moo
    16 hours ago










  • This answer misses the point that more comprehensive insurance costs the employer more money. They're surely within their rights to say "The laptop is only insured for X, Y and Z: if you want to do A, B or C, you're liable, because we're not paying the extra."
    – David Richerby
    10 hours ago










  • @DavidRicherby I don't think they're within their rights to say that. An employer can't make employees liable for things just by saying they are. However, the employer can say that you may not use company equipment for A, B, or C and, if you do, they can fire you.
    – David Schwartz
    1 hour ago



















3














If it's a work trip (i.e. they are sending you) then it's their responsibility, if it's a personal trip it's reasonable to expect the employee to cover it.






share|improve this answer





















  • While this is 1000% reasonable, the blunt reality is programmers at the moment have all the power. One has to suck up to them all the time, and give them "red smarties," and so on. (Err, that's "red M&Ms" in the US right?) So, it's a tough one.
    – Fattie
    yesterday








  • 1




    If I'm taking a work laptop on a personal trip, it's because I expect to do work on it. It's work-related, so the employer should cover it.
    – Nuclear Wang
    yesterday






  • 3




    @NuclearWang I disagree that it's work related - the OP is obviously trying to avoid using annual leave, so the trip itself obviously isn't work related, and the fact that they will be working on it is their own decision, not that of their employers. OP should pay for the additional insurance required. If it were an employer mandated trip, or if the employer required the op to work, then I would agree with you, but that's not the case.
    – Moo
    16 hours ago



















0














Check with your employer if you can return your current hardware to them and they can purchase and insure a new hardware to the location you are traveling to.



Regarding retaining your important data, you can perform backup of important things in a physical drive which is easily available and easy to carry while traveling and will be with you in case you need to use that data to setup new system. If they agree, Return the hardware as it is so they can make necessary backup procedures and also allocate it to different person.



This will bar you from worrying from how to insure your hardware as it will be up-to your employer to decide.






share|improve this answer





























    0














    TL;DR



    Yes, the employer can have good reasons and might request you for such additional insurance. However it's best to check all details first.



    Full answer



    Let me address this question from a perspective of a person with some experience in insurance industry.



    There are two factors to consider. In general you are usually liable for the property of your employer however this is usually limited to some degree. So if you leave your laptop in a car and it gets stolen you may be liable for its loss as this is in general something you should not do. On the other hand if you accidentally drop the laptop at your home it's usually insured and it the insurer takes a liability on this.



    Yet the insurance has its limitations and details depends on the insurer's product and employers choice (and for large companies negotiations). If the company is based in UK and doesn't expect their employees to travel outside the country the company may buy an insurance limited to UK only (that in general will be cheaper). On the other hand they may as well have coverage for trips abroad, albeit it can be limited, e.g. to EU/Europe only or to business trips ordered by the employer only. As you can see both cases wouldn't apply if your laptop gets damaged in the US which essentially means the liability is on you then.



    So yes, the employer might request you to additionally insure the laptop.



    What I would suggest is to ask the employer to check details about the insurance coverage they have. They probably have some specific person responsible for that inside a company and/or a broker who is responsible for handling their insurances. Ask about two things - to check if your specific situation is covered and what should be the conditions of the insurance to match those normally covered cases. If it is covered you're clear and good to go.



    If not, you should ask if it is possible to extend the insurance for the laptop and on what cost (to be covered by you as a reimbursement to your company, you'll probably need sign some extra agreement on it).



    Then go to insurance company/agent and ask if it is possible to include such insurance. It can be already included (unlikely), an additionally paid extension or a separate insurance. If the insurer of your choice doesn't have such option, ask other insurers as well.



    Now you have a clear situation and know the costs. It should be up to you to choose one, however check with your employer if they are happy with your choice of insurer. There may be some crappy companies as well and employer may say they won't accept such insurance.



    Another approach is that you agree to cover the loss if the equipment is lost or damaged and it's not covered by the insurance. You have probably agreed to that already but if not then again - there should be some formal agreement. Now unless the agreement clearly says you are obliged to insure the equipment (two sides can agree on almost anything) it's up to your discretion if you look for some kind of insurance to cover that risk or you just accept the risk on yourself.






    share|improve this answer





























      0














      First, understand that you are asking your employer for an accommodation. You wish to travel to the US and you wish to be able to work while you're traveling.



      You won't be able to get insurance. You do not own the property and you, as an employee, are not liable to your employer for theft of the employer's property. So you don't have an insurable interest.



      There are really only a few options:




      1. You could decide not to take the trip.

      2. You could agree to cover any losses to your employer's property during the trip.

      3. You could get your employer to purchase insurance that covers their property in the US at their own expense.

      4. You could get your employer to purchase insurance that covers their property at your own expense.

      5. You could get your employer to agree to take the risk that the property is stolen and they have to replace it.


      What option you take is open to negotiation between you and your employer.



      Normally, I would say that your employer should just accept this risk as a cost of doing business. But here, they are offering you a generous accommodation, allowing you to work while you travel so that you don't lose pay. I can tell you from experience that remote employees generally get less work done while they're traveling because they spend more time sightseeing and so on so having an employee traveling for months might be something they're accepting only grudgingly. Keep this in mind as you negotiate. It may help to reassure them that you will be responsive to work needs.






      share|improve this answer





























        -1














        The point that everyone seems to strenuously ignore is that you can only insure something that you own. So here any solution must come from the employer's insurance, not the employee. But it's OK, it would probably be cheaper anyway. and it'd only be a fairly routine extension of their existing 'stuff insurance'.



        === OK, If Moo is in the UK and knows better, that's not a good answer then :-). Thanks for the correction. I still stand by the second part though:



        I also disagree with the 'programmers are precious, suck it up' philosophy. The OP's employer is already being gracious about letting them roam around all over the world. There's no harm in being gracious back and offering to reimburse them for the extra cost of insurance. Why alienate people gratuitously? The programmers are precious situation could change more rapidly than you can imagine, and this kind of attitude will be remembered if a cull is needed.






        share|improve this answer



















        • 2




          "you can only insure something that you own". Bill Leeper made the same claim, but clearly you can get car insurance for a rental car from many insurance companies (not just the rental agency) and Jan Fabry found insurance in Belgium for privately rented equipment. So that assumption does not seem to be based in fact. Now whether such an insurance actually exists I have no idea, but evidence suggests that it's certainly possible.
          – Voo
          23 hours ago






        • 4




          You can trivially insure something you don't own but have responsibility for - I worked for a UK insurance broker web based insurance quote engines, and this is one of the things we sold insurance for.
          – Moo
          16 hours ago










        • @Voo You are wrong. Both of your supposed counter-examples are liability insurance. You own your liability. In the case we are talking about here, liability insurance won't work because an employee has no liability for theft of property belonging to their employer except at least in cases of recklessness. (And, Moo, you are not ensuring the thing you don't own, you're ensuring against your own liability, which you do own. It's your liability.)
          – David Schwartz
          57 mins ago











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        });






        9 Answers
        9






        active

        oldest

        votes








        9 Answers
        9






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        62














        Firstly, check if your travel insurance covers business, or if it's just a tourist coverage.



        Secondly... I'd be a bit suspicious of any company that requires me to insure their own property (you can't buy insurance on an item that you don't have any financial interest in), or any company that can't self-insure something as cheap as a laptop (even a Macbook Pro is pretty cheap in the scheme of things).






        share|improve this answer

















        • 9




          I don't think travel insurance covers your stuff, just the cost of your trip should you get sick or there be some adverse situation where you are visiting that resulted in flights or hotel cancellations. Your stuff is usually covered under your own insurance as part of your renters or homeowners coverage. That usually has a deductible and if home, will likely be higher than the cost of the computer. The employer is really saying here if something happens to our stuff while you are traveling for pleasure it's on you to replace.
          – Bill Leeper
          yesterday






        • 2




          @BillLeeper My travel insurance does cover items getting lost/damaged while travelling. My homeowners coverage does not.
          – Abigail
          23 hours ago






        • 8




          This is an unusual situation since the trip is not a business trip but a personal trip the OP wants to work on, presumably to avoid taking the time as annual leave - the employer could equally say "if you don't take out insurance, you need to leave your laptop at home and take the time as annual leave instead". Which is best is left for the OP to decide...
          – Moo
          16 hours ago






        • 8




          Please note that trip was OP idea, not company. Company insured hardware for domestic use and domestic use is what it wants from OP. Company is doing him a favor it does not need to do and only ask him to make sure it won't cost them. What's suspicious about that?
          – Mołot
          10 hours ago








        • 1




          @corsiKa Fewer heads isn't the whole story. In a large company, the average rate at which things happen is probably a meaningful measure; in a small company, things are much more stochastic. In a large company, you might need to replace, say, ten stolen laptops a year on average, which is a small cost averaged over all employees and it's staggeringly unlikely that you'll have to replace 100 stolen laptops in one year. But in a small company, the number of stolen laptops per year will be either zero or one and the years where it's "one" are way more than average and a big-ish cost per employee.
          – David Richerby
          10 hours ago


















        62














        Firstly, check if your travel insurance covers business, or if it's just a tourist coverage.



        Secondly... I'd be a bit suspicious of any company that requires me to insure their own property (you can't buy insurance on an item that you don't have any financial interest in), or any company that can't self-insure something as cheap as a laptop (even a Macbook Pro is pretty cheap in the scheme of things).






        share|improve this answer

















        • 9




          I don't think travel insurance covers your stuff, just the cost of your trip should you get sick or there be some adverse situation where you are visiting that resulted in flights or hotel cancellations. Your stuff is usually covered under your own insurance as part of your renters or homeowners coverage. That usually has a deductible and if home, will likely be higher than the cost of the computer. The employer is really saying here if something happens to our stuff while you are traveling for pleasure it's on you to replace.
          – Bill Leeper
          yesterday






        • 2




          @BillLeeper My travel insurance does cover items getting lost/damaged while travelling. My homeowners coverage does not.
          – Abigail
          23 hours ago






        • 8




          This is an unusual situation since the trip is not a business trip but a personal trip the OP wants to work on, presumably to avoid taking the time as annual leave - the employer could equally say "if you don't take out insurance, you need to leave your laptop at home and take the time as annual leave instead". Which is best is left for the OP to decide...
          – Moo
          16 hours ago






        • 8




          Please note that trip was OP idea, not company. Company insured hardware for domestic use and domestic use is what it wants from OP. Company is doing him a favor it does not need to do and only ask him to make sure it won't cost them. What's suspicious about that?
          – Mołot
          10 hours ago








        • 1




          @corsiKa Fewer heads isn't the whole story. In a large company, the average rate at which things happen is probably a meaningful measure; in a small company, things are much more stochastic. In a large company, you might need to replace, say, ten stolen laptops a year on average, which is a small cost averaged over all employees and it's staggeringly unlikely that you'll have to replace 100 stolen laptops in one year. But in a small company, the number of stolen laptops per year will be either zero or one and the years where it's "one" are way more than average and a big-ish cost per employee.
          – David Richerby
          10 hours ago
















        62












        62








        62






        Firstly, check if your travel insurance covers business, or if it's just a tourist coverage.



        Secondly... I'd be a bit suspicious of any company that requires me to insure their own property (you can't buy insurance on an item that you don't have any financial interest in), or any company that can't self-insure something as cheap as a laptop (even a Macbook Pro is pretty cheap in the scheme of things).






        share|improve this answer












        Firstly, check if your travel insurance covers business, or if it's just a tourist coverage.



        Secondly... I'd be a bit suspicious of any company that requires me to insure their own property (you can't buy insurance on an item that you don't have any financial interest in), or any company that can't self-insure something as cheap as a laptop (even a Macbook Pro is pretty cheap in the scheme of things).







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        PeteConPeteCon

        14.8k43960




        14.8k43960








        • 9




          I don't think travel insurance covers your stuff, just the cost of your trip should you get sick or there be some adverse situation where you are visiting that resulted in flights or hotel cancellations. Your stuff is usually covered under your own insurance as part of your renters or homeowners coverage. That usually has a deductible and if home, will likely be higher than the cost of the computer. The employer is really saying here if something happens to our stuff while you are traveling for pleasure it's on you to replace.
          – Bill Leeper
          yesterday






        • 2




          @BillLeeper My travel insurance does cover items getting lost/damaged while travelling. My homeowners coverage does not.
          – Abigail
          23 hours ago






        • 8




          This is an unusual situation since the trip is not a business trip but a personal trip the OP wants to work on, presumably to avoid taking the time as annual leave - the employer could equally say "if you don't take out insurance, you need to leave your laptop at home and take the time as annual leave instead". Which is best is left for the OP to decide...
          – Moo
          16 hours ago






        • 8




          Please note that trip was OP idea, not company. Company insured hardware for domestic use and domestic use is what it wants from OP. Company is doing him a favor it does not need to do and only ask him to make sure it won't cost them. What's suspicious about that?
          – Mołot
          10 hours ago








        • 1




          @corsiKa Fewer heads isn't the whole story. In a large company, the average rate at which things happen is probably a meaningful measure; in a small company, things are much more stochastic. In a large company, you might need to replace, say, ten stolen laptops a year on average, which is a small cost averaged over all employees and it's staggeringly unlikely that you'll have to replace 100 stolen laptops in one year. But in a small company, the number of stolen laptops per year will be either zero or one and the years where it's "one" are way more than average and a big-ish cost per employee.
          – David Richerby
          10 hours ago
















        • 9




          I don't think travel insurance covers your stuff, just the cost of your trip should you get sick or there be some adverse situation where you are visiting that resulted in flights or hotel cancellations. Your stuff is usually covered under your own insurance as part of your renters or homeowners coverage. That usually has a deductible and if home, will likely be higher than the cost of the computer. The employer is really saying here if something happens to our stuff while you are traveling for pleasure it's on you to replace.
          – Bill Leeper
          yesterday






        • 2




          @BillLeeper My travel insurance does cover items getting lost/damaged while travelling. My homeowners coverage does not.
          – Abigail
          23 hours ago






        • 8




          This is an unusual situation since the trip is not a business trip but a personal trip the OP wants to work on, presumably to avoid taking the time as annual leave - the employer could equally say "if you don't take out insurance, you need to leave your laptop at home and take the time as annual leave instead". Which is best is left for the OP to decide...
          – Moo
          16 hours ago






        • 8




          Please note that trip was OP idea, not company. Company insured hardware for domestic use and domestic use is what it wants from OP. Company is doing him a favor it does not need to do and only ask him to make sure it won't cost them. What's suspicious about that?
          – Mołot
          10 hours ago








        • 1




          @corsiKa Fewer heads isn't the whole story. In a large company, the average rate at which things happen is probably a meaningful measure; in a small company, things are much more stochastic. In a large company, you might need to replace, say, ten stolen laptops a year on average, which is a small cost averaged over all employees and it's staggeringly unlikely that you'll have to replace 100 stolen laptops in one year. But in a small company, the number of stolen laptops per year will be either zero or one and the years where it's "one" are way more than average and a big-ish cost per employee.
          – David Richerby
          10 hours ago










        9




        9




        I don't think travel insurance covers your stuff, just the cost of your trip should you get sick or there be some adverse situation where you are visiting that resulted in flights or hotel cancellations. Your stuff is usually covered under your own insurance as part of your renters or homeowners coverage. That usually has a deductible and if home, will likely be higher than the cost of the computer. The employer is really saying here if something happens to our stuff while you are traveling for pleasure it's on you to replace.
        – Bill Leeper
        yesterday




        I don't think travel insurance covers your stuff, just the cost of your trip should you get sick or there be some adverse situation where you are visiting that resulted in flights or hotel cancellations. Your stuff is usually covered under your own insurance as part of your renters or homeowners coverage. That usually has a deductible and if home, will likely be higher than the cost of the computer. The employer is really saying here if something happens to our stuff while you are traveling for pleasure it's on you to replace.
        – Bill Leeper
        yesterday




        2




        2




        @BillLeeper My travel insurance does cover items getting lost/damaged while travelling. My homeowners coverage does not.
        – Abigail
        23 hours ago




        @BillLeeper My travel insurance does cover items getting lost/damaged while travelling. My homeowners coverage does not.
        – Abigail
        23 hours ago




        8




        8




        This is an unusual situation since the trip is not a business trip but a personal trip the OP wants to work on, presumably to avoid taking the time as annual leave - the employer could equally say "if you don't take out insurance, you need to leave your laptop at home and take the time as annual leave instead". Which is best is left for the OP to decide...
        – Moo
        16 hours ago




        This is an unusual situation since the trip is not a business trip but a personal trip the OP wants to work on, presumably to avoid taking the time as annual leave - the employer could equally say "if you don't take out insurance, you need to leave your laptop at home and take the time as annual leave instead". Which is best is left for the OP to decide...
        – Moo
        16 hours ago




        8




        8




        Please note that trip was OP idea, not company. Company insured hardware for domestic use and domestic use is what it wants from OP. Company is doing him a favor it does not need to do and only ask him to make sure it won't cost them. What's suspicious about that?
        – Mołot
        10 hours ago






        Please note that trip was OP idea, not company. Company insured hardware for domestic use and domestic use is what it wants from OP. Company is doing him a favor it does not need to do and only ask him to make sure it won't cost them. What's suspicious about that?
        – Mołot
        10 hours ago






        1




        1




        @corsiKa Fewer heads isn't the whole story. In a large company, the average rate at which things happen is probably a meaningful measure; in a small company, things are much more stochastic. In a large company, you might need to replace, say, ten stolen laptops a year on average, which is a small cost averaged over all employees and it's staggeringly unlikely that you'll have to replace 100 stolen laptops in one year. But in a small company, the number of stolen laptops per year will be either zero or one and the years where it's "one" are way more than average and a big-ish cost per employee.
        – David Richerby
        10 hours ago






        @corsiKa Fewer heads isn't the whole story. In a large company, the average rate at which things happen is probably a meaningful measure; in a small company, things are much more stochastic. In a large company, you might need to replace, say, ten stolen laptops a year on average, which is a small cost averaged over all employees and it's staggeringly unlikely that you'll have to replace 100 stolen laptops in one year. But in a small company, the number of stolen laptops per year will be either zero or one and the years where it's "one" are way more than average and a big-ish cost per employee.
        – David Richerby
        10 hours ago















        43














        You have a little bit outside the box problem here.




        1. You are voluntarily traveling, this is not for business, but yourself.

        2. The company wants to minimize the obvious risk of losing their equipment while you are jetting around the world (their view, not yours)

        3. Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.


        You need to have a conversation with your manager. Indicate that since the equipment belongs to the company and not yourself, you will be unable to obtain any insurance coverage for it on your own. If they would like to obtain additional coverage than what they normally carry, then you could have a discussion about having that additional expense reduced from your salary.



        In summary this is how I see it.




        1. You are voluntarily making this trip, it is not business related or directed.

        2. The company owns the equipment though, so they need to make whatever arrangements they see fit.

        3. You will have to decide if you can accept what they come up with or work out your own plan.


        Additionally if you were to buy your own equipment and use it for work while traveling you would need to additionally indicate with the insurance company that you are using this equipment for work, they may reject a claim at some point if you did not indicate this.



        This will NOT be travel insurance, that is for if you get sick etc. and have to cancel your trip. You need to look into a 'personal articles' policy (US terminology your local agent can help you determine the right UK coverage). This is insurance that covers a specific item. I have it on several computers, my wife's expensive jewelry and a few other items easily lost, damaged, or stolen.






        share|improve this answer

















        • 31




          "Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.". That seems too general a statement. I buy car insurance for rental cars and I certainly don't own the car (and I don't have to use the insurance the renting agency offers, so it's not just a deal with the company itself). Now whether there exists any insurance for this particular case is a different question, but there's certainly no point blank reason for such a insurance impossible to exist.
          – Voo
          yesterday






        • 5




          In the UK travel insurance routinely covers personal effects taken with you, at least for theft or loss outside your control.
          – patstew
          yesterday






        • 10




          @Voo: Just checked this for my country (Belgium), and I can buy (extra) insurance that will also cover goods that I rent or borrow (as a private person, so goods from my employer are probably not covered). So it's certainly not impossible.
          – Jan Fabry
          yesterday






        • 3




          @Bill No I don't necessarily buy car insurance from the rental company and it still works just fine. And sure the insurance company only pays the parts that aren't covered by other insurance, but that's quite common for many other insurances as well (I have a national and a private health insurance - is my private insurance now not an insurance any more because it only covers the parts that are not paid by the national one?). And as Jan mentioned he already found examples of being able to insure non-owned property, so clearly this is not just academic.
          – Voo
          yesterday






        • 3




          @Voo this seems a bit like liability insurance in the car case., That is you don't insure the care but rather insure yourself against being liable for damages you cause to the car. Same way my uni required chemistry students to have an insurance for accidental harm caused to others or equipment damage. Where I live the umbrella term is "civilian liability" or some such.
          – Jan Dorniak
          23 hours ago
















        43














        You have a little bit outside the box problem here.




        1. You are voluntarily traveling, this is not for business, but yourself.

        2. The company wants to minimize the obvious risk of losing their equipment while you are jetting around the world (their view, not yours)

        3. Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.


        You need to have a conversation with your manager. Indicate that since the equipment belongs to the company and not yourself, you will be unable to obtain any insurance coverage for it on your own. If they would like to obtain additional coverage than what they normally carry, then you could have a discussion about having that additional expense reduced from your salary.



        In summary this is how I see it.




        1. You are voluntarily making this trip, it is not business related or directed.

        2. The company owns the equipment though, so they need to make whatever arrangements they see fit.

        3. You will have to decide if you can accept what they come up with or work out your own plan.


        Additionally if you were to buy your own equipment and use it for work while traveling you would need to additionally indicate with the insurance company that you are using this equipment for work, they may reject a claim at some point if you did not indicate this.



        This will NOT be travel insurance, that is for if you get sick etc. and have to cancel your trip. You need to look into a 'personal articles' policy (US terminology your local agent can help you determine the right UK coverage). This is insurance that covers a specific item. I have it on several computers, my wife's expensive jewelry and a few other items easily lost, damaged, or stolen.






        share|improve this answer

















        • 31




          "Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.". That seems too general a statement. I buy car insurance for rental cars and I certainly don't own the car (and I don't have to use the insurance the renting agency offers, so it's not just a deal with the company itself). Now whether there exists any insurance for this particular case is a different question, but there's certainly no point blank reason for such a insurance impossible to exist.
          – Voo
          yesterday






        • 5




          In the UK travel insurance routinely covers personal effects taken with you, at least for theft or loss outside your control.
          – patstew
          yesterday






        • 10




          @Voo: Just checked this for my country (Belgium), and I can buy (extra) insurance that will also cover goods that I rent or borrow (as a private person, so goods from my employer are probably not covered). So it's certainly not impossible.
          – Jan Fabry
          yesterday






        • 3




          @Bill No I don't necessarily buy car insurance from the rental company and it still works just fine. And sure the insurance company only pays the parts that aren't covered by other insurance, but that's quite common for many other insurances as well (I have a national and a private health insurance - is my private insurance now not an insurance any more because it only covers the parts that are not paid by the national one?). And as Jan mentioned he already found examples of being able to insure non-owned property, so clearly this is not just academic.
          – Voo
          yesterday






        • 3




          @Voo this seems a bit like liability insurance in the car case., That is you don't insure the care but rather insure yourself against being liable for damages you cause to the car. Same way my uni required chemistry students to have an insurance for accidental harm caused to others or equipment damage. Where I live the umbrella term is "civilian liability" or some such.
          – Jan Dorniak
          23 hours ago














        43












        43








        43






        You have a little bit outside the box problem here.




        1. You are voluntarily traveling, this is not for business, but yourself.

        2. The company wants to minimize the obvious risk of losing their equipment while you are jetting around the world (their view, not yours)

        3. Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.


        You need to have a conversation with your manager. Indicate that since the equipment belongs to the company and not yourself, you will be unable to obtain any insurance coverage for it on your own. If they would like to obtain additional coverage than what they normally carry, then you could have a discussion about having that additional expense reduced from your salary.



        In summary this is how I see it.




        1. You are voluntarily making this trip, it is not business related or directed.

        2. The company owns the equipment though, so they need to make whatever arrangements they see fit.

        3. You will have to decide if you can accept what they come up with or work out your own plan.


        Additionally if you were to buy your own equipment and use it for work while traveling you would need to additionally indicate with the insurance company that you are using this equipment for work, they may reject a claim at some point if you did not indicate this.



        This will NOT be travel insurance, that is for if you get sick etc. and have to cancel your trip. You need to look into a 'personal articles' policy (US terminology your local agent can help you determine the right UK coverage). This is insurance that covers a specific item. I have it on several computers, my wife's expensive jewelry and a few other items easily lost, damaged, or stolen.






        share|improve this answer












        You have a little bit outside the box problem here.




        1. You are voluntarily traveling, this is not for business, but yourself.

        2. The company wants to minimize the obvious risk of losing their equipment while you are jetting around the world (their view, not yours)

        3. Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.


        You need to have a conversation with your manager. Indicate that since the equipment belongs to the company and not yourself, you will be unable to obtain any insurance coverage for it on your own. If they would like to obtain additional coverage than what they normally carry, then you could have a discussion about having that additional expense reduced from your salary.



        In summary this is how I see it.




        1. You are voluntarily making this trip, it is not business related or directed.

        2. The company owns the equipment though, so they need to make whatever arrangements they see fit.

        3. You will have to decide if you can accept what they come up with or work out your own plan.


        Additionally if you were to buy your own equipment and use it for work while traveling you would need to additionally indicate with the insurance company that you are using this equipment for work, they may reject a claim at some point if you did not indicate this.



        This will NOT be travel insurance, that is for if you get sick etc. and have to cancel your trip. You need to look into a 'personal articles' policy (US terminology your local agent can help you determine the right UK coverage). This is insurance that covers a specific item. I have it on several computers, my wife's expensive jewelry and a few other items easily lost, damaged, or stolen.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        Bill LeeperBill Leeper

        12k3038




        12k3038








        • 31




          "Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.". That seems too general a statement. I buy car insurance for rental cars and I certainly don't own the car (and I don't have to use the insurance the renting agency offers, so it's not just a deal with the company itself). Now whether there exists any insurance for this particular case is a different question, but there's certainly no point blank reason for such a insurance impossible to exist.
          – Voo
          yesterday






        • 5




          In the UK travel insurance routinely covers personal effects taken with you, at least for theft or loss outside your control.
          – patstew
          yesterday






        • 10




          @Voo: Just checked this for my country (Belgium), and I can buy (extra) insurance that will also cover goods that I rent or borrow (as a private person, so goods from my employer are probably not covered). So it's certainly not impossible.
          – Jan Fabry
          yesterday






        • 3




          @Bill No I don't necessarily buy car insurance from the rental company and it still works just fine. And sure the insurance company only pays the parts that aren't covered by other insurance, but that's quite common for many other insurances as well (I have a national and a private health insurance - is my private insurance now not an insurance any more because it only covers the parts that are not paid by the national one?). And as Jan mentioned he already found examples of being able to insure non-owned property, so clearly this is not just academic.
          – Voo
          yesterday






        • 3




          @Voo this seems a bit like liability insurance in the car case., That is you don't insure the care but rather insure yourself against being liable for damages you cause to the car. Same way my uni required chemistry students to have an insurance for accidental harm caused to others or equipment damage. Where I live the umbrella term is "civilian liability" or some such.
          – Jan Dorniak
          23 hours ago














        • 31




          "Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.". That seems too general a statement. I buy car insurance for rental cars and I certainly don't own the car (and I don't have to use the insurance the renting agency offers, so it's not just a deal with the company itself). Now whether there exists any insurance for this particular case is a different question, but there's certainly no point blank reason for such a insurance impossible to exist.
          – Voo
          yesterday






        • 5




          In the UK travel insurance routinely covers personal effects taken with you, at least for theft or loss outside your control.
          – patstew
          yesterday






        • 10




          @Voo: Just checked this for my country (Belgium), and I can buy (extra) insurance that will also cover goods that I rent or borrow (as a private person, so goods from my employer are probably not covered). So it's certainly not impossible.
          – Jan Fabry
          yesterday






        • 3




          @Bill No I don't necessarily buy car insurance from the rental company and it still works just fine. And sure the insurance company only pays the parts that aren't covered by other insurance, but that's quite common for many other insurances as well (I have a national and a private health insurance - is my private insurance now not an insurance any more because it only covers the parts that are not paid by the national one?). And as Jan mentioned he already found examples of being able to insure non-owned property, so clearly this is not just academic.
          – Voo
          yesterday






        • 3




          @Voo this seems a bit like liability insurance in the car case., That is you don't insure the care but rather insure yourself against being liable for damages you cause to the car. Same way my uni required chemistry students to have an insurance for accidental harm caused to others or equipment damage. Where I live the umbrella term is "civilian liability" or some such.
          – Jan Dorniak
          23 hours ago








        31




        31




        "Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.". That seems too general a statement. I buy car insurance for rental cars and I certainly don't own the car (and I don't have to use the insurance the renting agency offers, so it's not just a deal with the company itself). Now whether there exists any insurance for this particular case is a different question, but there's certainly no point blank reason for such a insurance impossible to exist.
        – Voo
        yesterday




        "Any insurance YOU buy is NOT going to cover something you do not own, period.". That seems too general a statement. I buy car insurance for rental cars and I certainly don't own the car (and I don't have to use the insurance the renting agency offers, so it's not just a deal with the company itself). Now whether there exists any insurance for this particular case is a different question, but there's certainly no point blank reason for such a insurance impossible to exist.
        – Voo
        yesterday




        5




        5




        In the UK travel insurance routinely covers personal effects taken with you, at least for theft or loss outside your control.
        – patstew
        yesterday




        In the UK travel insurance routinely covers personal effects taken with you, at least for theft or loss outside your control.
        – patstew
        yesterday




        10




        10




        @Voo: Just checked this for my country (Belgium), and I can buy (extra) insurance that will also cover goods that I rent or borrow (as a private person, so goods from my employer are probably not covered). So it's certainly not impossible.
        – Jan Fabry
        yesterday




        @Voo: Just checked this for my country (Belgium), and I can buy (extra) insurance that will also cover goods that I rent or borrow (as a private person, so goods from my employer are probably not covered). So it's certainly not impossible.
        – Jan Fabry
        yesterday




        3




        3




        @Bill No I don't necessarily buy car insurance from the rental company and it still works just fine. And sure the insurance company only pays the parts that aren't covered by other insurance, but that's quite common for many other insurances as well (I have a national and a private health insurance - is my private insurance now not an insurance any more because it only covers the parts that are not paid by the national one?). And as Jan mentioned he already found examples of being able to insure non-owned property, so clearly this is not just academic.
        – Voo
        yesterday




        @Bill No I don't necessarily buy car insurance from the rental company and it still works just fine. And sure the insurance company only pays the parts that aren't covered by other insurance, but that's quite common for many other insurances as well (I have a national and a private health insurance - is my private insurance now not an insurance any more because it only covers the parts that are not paid by the national one?). And as Jan mentioned he already found examples of being able to insure non-owned property, so clearly this is not just academic.
        – Voo
        yesterday




        3




        3




        @Voo this seems a bit like liability insurance in the car case., That is you don't insure the care but rather insure yourself against being liable for damages you cause to the car. Same way my uni required chemistry students to have an insurance for accidental harm caused to others or equipment damage. Where I live the umbrella term is "civilian liability" or some such.
        – Jan Dorniak
        23 hours ago




        @Voo this seems a bit like liability insurance in the car case., That is you don't insure the care but rather insure yourself against being liable for damages you cause to the car. Same way my uni required chemistry students to have an insurance for accidental harm caused to others or equipment damage. Where I live the umbrella term is "civilian liability" or some such.
        – Jan Dorniak
        23 hours ago











        23














        It's a tricky issue.




        1. The "overseas" aspect is not relevant. The issue at hand is just, "Do you have to pay for accidental damage to equipment the company supplied." This would apply whether you broke it in your house, commuting, in Patagonia or indeed even at the office.


        2. My personal view is that the company just has to suck it up and pay.


        3. Particularly in the wildly-paid, go-go world of software today ... it's hard to see that you can make a programmer do .. well, anything.


        4. For me personally (only one example) if one of the folks smashes something or loses it, I just sigh, click to Amazon, and hand out another one :/ What are we gonna do, fire them and spend 3 months / 50k finding another expert in some obscure field?


        5. Then again - I know that some companies policies is "Wow! We give you $2800 a year against equipment costs!" (you see this sort of blather in a few job ads on OS, from companies trying to hire programmers cheap) In that case, it would probably be reasonable that "that's it" - if you lose the 2500 bucks, or whatever, it's on you to dig up another laptop.



        So one opinion, basically "they should pay in almost all cases"



        That being said,




        1. It sounds like you're getting a "sweet deal" from your employer - they are letting you work remotely while you fool around in the US? If so .. my gut instinct is to "suck it up".


        NOTE: Put it in writing that as a courtesy you will be insuring the laptop when overseas, and do so.




        1. If however the company is "sending you to" the US on a project - then, flooglestick 'em. Of course, obviously, they have to pay the insurance/etc. End of story.




        Even more information!




        "It's my own choice and they've said they'd have no problem with it (since I work remotely anyway)"




        One immediate fact:




        • As a kind of broad general rule, if you work remotely then you pay for your own gear. This is not a firm rule, but it's a general rule.


        And then,



        Looking again at point (6). I have to say, I would treat this as a point 6 situation. They are being understanding taking the view that "they don't have a problem with it". {Aside: let's see what they say in a month when they realize the time zone issues.} Just one man's opinion then, you should "go the extra mile" and politely cover the danger yourself.



        NOTE: Put it in writing that as a courtesy you will be insuring the laptop when overseas, and do so.






        share|improve this answer



















        • 2




          Not sure why you're getting downvoted but I tend to agree with you. If they were sending me then I'd expect them to pay. In this case it's my choice to go abroad, but I'm working remotely here anyway so it likely boils down to a policy that only covers the UK. I suppose I'll look into what extra costs I'd incur to add this to my travel insurance (and possibly a business option for that as @PeteCon suggested). And definitely ALWAYS getting these kind of things in writing
          – GroomedGorilla
          yesterday






        • 4




          It sounds like everyone's on the same page; I'm the #1 "worker's rights" advocate on the site, but unusually here, I do see some value in you "sucking it up" . . . it's a chance for you to overtly and explicitly make it clear that you're "going the extra distance" (on a minor point) since they've done a mild favor for you. Never get in a situation where "you owe them one!"
          – Fattie
          yesterday






        • 1




          Number 6 makes perfect sense. And they could always do what some people do, just smile, nod, agree to do whatever, and then ignore it.
          – Kilisi
          yesterday






        • 1




          I agree with Number 6, and where this seems now to be the case, then that is the correct answer. What insurance to get and how is of course an additional question....
          – Dragonel
          22 hours ago






        • 1




          Why does „work remotely“ imply „paying for your own gear“? In fact I know many company policies strictly forbidding to work with personal computing equipment. (In a home office scenario you might need to pay for some stuff yourself)
          – eckes
          11 hours ago
















        23














        It's a tricky issue.




        1. The "overseas" aspect is not relevant. The issue at hand is just, "Do you have to pay for accidental damage to equipment the company supplied." This would apply whether you broke it in your house, commuting, in Patagonia or indeed even at the office.


        2. My personal view is that the company just has to suck it up and pay.


        3. Particularly in the wildly-paid, go-go world of software today ... it's hard to see that you can make a programmer do .. well, anything.


        4. For me personally (only one example) if one of the folks smashes something or loses it, I just sigh, click to Amazon, and hand out another one :/ What are we gonna do, fire them and spend 3 months / 50k finding another expert in some obscure field?


        5. Then again - I know that some companies policies is "Wow! We give you $2800 a year against equipment costs!" (you see this sort of blather in a few job ads on OS, from companies trying to hire programmers cheap) In that case, it would probably be reasonable that "that's it" - if you lose the 2500 bucks, or whatever, it's on you to dig up another laptop.



        So one opinion, basically "they should pay in almost all cases"



        That being said,




        1. It sounds like you're getting a "sweet deal" from your employer - they are letting you work remotely while you fool around in the US? If so .. my gut instinct is to "suck it up".


        NOTE: Put it in writing that as a courtesy you will be insuring the laptop when overseas, and do so.




        1. If however the company is "sending you to" the US on a project - then, flooglestick 'em. Of course, obviously, they have to pay the insurance/etc. End of story.




        Even more information!




        "It's my own choice and they've said they'd have no problem with it (since I work remotely anyway)"




        One immediate fact:




        • As a kind of broad general rule, if you work remotely then you pay for your own gear. This is not a firm rule, but it's a general rule.


        And then,



        Looking again at point (6). I have to say, I would treat this as a point 6 situation. They are being understanding taking the view that "they don't have a problem with it". {Aside: let's see what they say in a month when they realize the time zone issues.} Just one man's opinion then, you should "go the extra mile" and politely cover the danger yourself.



        NOTE: Put it in writing that as a courtesy you will be insuring the laptop when overseas, and do so.






        share|improve this answer



















        • 2




          Not sure why you're getting downvoted but I tend to agree with you. If they were sending me then I'd expect them to pay. In this case it's my choice to go abroad, but I'm working remotely here anyway so it likely boils down to a policy that only covers the UK. I suppose I'll look into what extra costs I'd incur to add this to my travel insurance (and possibly a business option for that as @PeteCon suggested). And definitely ALWAYS getting these kind of things in writing
          – GroomedGorilla
          yesterday






        • 4




          It sounds like everyone's on the same page; I'm the #1 "worker's rights" advocate on the site, but unusually here, I do see some value in you "sucking it up" . . . it's a chance for you to overtly and explicitly make it clear that you're "going the extra distance" (on a minor point) since they've done a mild favor for you. Never get in a situation where "you owe them one!"
          – Fattie
          yesterday






        • 1




          Number 6 makes perfect sense. And they could always do what some people do, just smile, nod, agree to do whatever, and then ignore it.
          – Kilisi
          yesterday






        • 1




          I agree with Number 6, and where this seems now to be the case, then that is the correct answer. What insurance to get and how is of course an additional question....
          – Dragonel
          22 hours ago






        • 1




          Why does „work remotely“ imply „paying for your own gear“? In fact I know many company policies strictly forbidding to work with personal computing equipment. (In a home office scenario you might need to pay for some stuff yourself)
          – eckes
          11 hours ago














        23












        23








        23






        It's a tricky issue.




        1. The "overseas" aspect is not relevant. The issue at hand is just, "Do you have to pay for accidental damage to equipment the company supplied." This would apply whether you broke it in your house, commuting, in Patagonia or indeed even at the office.


        2. My personal view is that the company just has to suck it up and pay.


        3. Particularly in the wildly-paid, go-go world of software today ... it's hard to see that you can make a programmer do .. well, anything.


        4. For me personally (only one example) if one of the folks smashes something or loses it, I just sigh, click to Amazon, and hand out another one :/ What are we gonna do, fire them and spend 3 months / 50k finding another expert in some obscure field?


        5. Then again - I know that some companies policies is "Wow! We give you $2800 a year against equipment costs!" (you see this sort of blather in a few job ads on OS, from companies trying to hire programmers cheap) In that case, it would probably be reasonable that "that's it" - if you lose the 2500 bucks, or whatever, it's on you to dig up another laptop.



        So one opinion, basically "they should pay in almost all cases"



        That being said,




        1. It sounds like you're getting a "sweet deal" from your employer - they are letting you work remotely while you fool around in the US? If so .. my gut instinct is to "suck it up".


        NOTE: Put it in writing that as a courtesy you will be insuring the laptop when overseas, and do so.




        1. If however the company is "sending you to" the US on a project - then, flooglestick 'em. Of course, obviously, they have to pay the insurance/etc. End of story.




        Even more information!




        "It's my own choice and they've said they'd have no problem with it (since I work remotely anyway)"




        One immediate fact:




        • As a kind of broad general rule, if you work remotely then you pay for your own gear. This is not a firm rule, but it's a general rule.


        And then,



        Looking again at point (6). I have to say, I would treat this as a point 6 situation. They are being understanding taking the view that "they don't have a problem with it". {Aside: let's see what they say in a month when they realize the time zone issues.} Just one man's opinion then, you should "go the extra mile" and politely cover the danger yourself.



        NOTE: Put it in writing that as a courtesy you will be insuring the laptop when overseas, and do so.






        share|improve this answer














        It's a tricky issue.




        1. The "overseas" aspect is not relevant. The issue at hand is just, "Do you have to pay for accidental damage to equipment the company supplied." This would apply whether you broke it in your house, commuting, in Patagonia or indeed even at the office.


        2. My personal view is that the company just has to suck it up and pay.


        3. Particularly in the wildly-paid, go-go world of software today ... it's hard to see that you can make a programmer do .. well, anything.


        4. For me personally (only one example) if one of the folks smashes something or loses it, I just sigh, click to Amazon, and hand out another one :/ What are we gonna do, fire them and spend 3 months / 50k finding another expert in some obscure field?


        5. Then again - I know that some companies policies is "Wow! We give you $2800 a year against equipment costs!" (you see this sort of blather in a few job ads on OS, from companies trying to hire programmers cheap) In that case, it would probably be reasonable that "that's it" - if you lose the 2500 bucks, or whatever, it's on you to dig up another laptop.



        So one opinion, basically "they should pay in almost all cases"



        That being said,




        1. It sounds like you're getting a "sweet deal" from your employer - they are letting you work remotely while you fool around in the US? If so .. my gut instinct is to "suck it up".


        NOTE: Put it in writing that as a courtesy you will be insuring the laptop when overseas, and do so.




        1. If however the company is "sending you to" the US on a project - then, flooglestick 'em. Of course, obviously, they have to pay the insurance/etc. End of story.




        Even more information!




        "It's my own choice and they've said they'd have no problem with it (since I work remotely anyway)"




        One immediate fact:




        • As a kind of broad general rule, if you work remotely then you pay for your own gear. This is not a firm rule, but it's a general rule.


        And then,



        Looking again at point (6). I have to say, I would treat this as a point 6 situation. They are being understanding taking the view that "they don't have a problem with it". {Aside: let's see what they say in a month when they realize the time zone issues.} Just one man's opinion then, you should "go the extra mile" and politely cover the danger yourself.



        NOTE: Put it in writing that as a courtesy you will be insuring the laptop when overseas, and do so.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited yesterday

























        answered yesterday









        FattieFattie

        7,77031327




        7,77031327








        • 2




          Not sure why you're getting downvoted but I tend to agree with you. If they were sending me then I'd expect them to pay. In this case it's my choice to go abroad, but I'm working remotely here anyway so it likely boils down to a policy that only covers the UK. I suppose I'll look into what extra costs I'd incur to add this to my travel insurance (and possibly a business option for that as @PeteCon suggested). And definitely ALWAYS getting these kind of things in writing
          – GroomedGorilla
          yesterday






        • 4




          It sounds like everyone's on the same page; I'm the #1 "worker's rights" advocate on the site, but unusually here, I do see some value in you "sucking it up" . . . it's a chance for you to overtly and explicitly make it clear that you're "going the extra distance" (on a minor point) since they've done a mild favor for you. Never get in a situation where "you owe them one!"
          – Fattie
          yesterday






        • 1




          Number 6 makes perfect sense. And they could always do what some people do, just smile, nod, agree to do whatever, and then ignore it.
          – Kilisi
          yesterday






        • 1




          I agree with Number 6, and where this seems now to be the case, then that is the correct answer. What insurance to get and how is of course an additional question....
          – Dragonel
          22 hours ago






        • 1




          Why does „work remotely“ imply „paying for your own gear“? In fact I know many company policies strictly forbidding to work with personal computing equipment. (In a home office scenario you might need to pay for some stuff yourself)
          – eckes
          11 hours ago














        • 2




          Not sure why you're getting downvoted but I tend to agree with you. If they were sending me then I'd expect them to pay. In this case it's my choice to go abroad, but I'm working remotely here anyway so it likely boils down to a policy that only covers the UK. I suppose I'll look into what extra costs I'd incur to add this to my travel insurance (and possibly a business option for that as @PeteCon suggested). And definitely ALWAYS getting these kind of things in writing
          – GroomedGorilla
          yesterday






        • 4




          It sounds like everyone's on the same page; I'm the #1 "worker's rights" advocate on the site, but unusually here, I do see some value in you "sucking it up" . . . it's a chance for you to overtly and explicitly make it clear that you're "going the extra distance" (on a minor point) since they've done a mild favor for you. Never get in a situation where "you owe them one!"
          – Fattie
          yesterday






        • 1




          Number 6 makes perfect sense. And they could always do what some people do, just smile, nod, agree to do whatever, and then ignore it.
          – Kilisi
          yesterday






        • 1




          I agree with Number 6, and where this seems now to be the case, then that is the correct answer. What insurance to get and how is of course an additional question....
          – Dragonel
          22 hours ago






        • 1




          Why does „work remotely“ imply „paying for your own gear“? In fact I know many company policies strictly forbidding to work with personal computing equipment. (In a home office scenario you might need to pay for some stuff yourself)
          – eckes
          11 hours ago








        2




        2




        Not sure why you're getting downvoted but I tend to agree with you. If they were sending me then I'd expect them to pay. In this case it's my choice to go abroad, but I'm working remotely here anyway so it likely boils down to a policy that only covers the UK. I suppose I'll look into what extra costs I'd incur to add this to my travel insurance (and possibly a business option for that as @PeteCon suggested). And definitely ALWAYS getting these kind of things in writing
        – GroomedGorilla
        yesterday




        Not sure why you're getting downvoted but I tend to agree with you. If they were sending me then I'd expect them to pay. In this case it's my choice to go abroad, but I'm working remotely here anyway so it likely boils down to a policy that only covers the UK. I suppose I'll look into what extra costs I'd incur to add this to my travel insurance (and possibly a business option for that as @PeteCon suggested). And definitely ALWAYS getting these kind of things in writing
        – GroomedGorilla
        yesterday




        4




        4




        It sounds like everyone's on the same page; I'm the #1 "worker's rights" advocate on the site, but unusually here, I do see some value in you "sucking it up" . . . it's a chance for you to overtly and explicitly make it clear that you're "going the extra distance" (on a minor point) since they've done a mild favor for you. Never get in a situation where "you owe them one!"
        – Fattie
        yesterday




        It sounds like everyone's on the same page; I'm the #1 "worker's rights" advocate on the site, but unusually here, I do see some value in you "sucking it up" . . . it's a chance for you to overtly and explicitly make it clear that you're "going the extra distance" (on a minor point) since they've done a mild favor for you. Never get in a situation where "you owe them one!"
        – Fattie
        yesterday




        1




        1




        Number 6 makes perfect sense. And they could always do what some people do, just smile, nod, agree to do whatever, and then ignore it.
        – Kilisi
        yesterday




        Number 6 makes perfect sense. And they could always do what some people do, just smile, nod, agree to do whatever, and then ignore it.
        – Kilisi
        yesterday




        1




        1




        I agree with Number 6, and where this seems now to be the case, then that is the correct answer. What insurance to get and how is of course an additional question....
        – Dragonel
        22 hours ago




        I agree with Number 6, and where this seems now to be the case, then that is the correct answer. What insurance to get and how is of course an additional question....
        – Dragonel
        22 hours ago




        1




        1




        Why does „work remotely“ imply „paying for your own gear“? In fact I know many company policies strictly forbidding to work with personal computing equipment. (In a home office scenario you might need to pay for some stuff yourself)
        – eckes
        11 hours ago




        Why does „work remotely“ imply „paying for your own gear“? In fact I know many company policies strictly forbidding to work with personal computing equipment. (In a home office scenario you might need to pay for some stuff yourself)
        – eckes
        11 hours ago











        5














        Given that you already work remotely and the equipment is not already insured, you should not be required to insure this equipment just because you are going to a separate remote location.



        If the company would like their equipment insured, they should do it themselves.






        share|improve this answer

















        • 3




          That would be my preferred reasoning, but they're claiming their policy doesn't cover the US. I'm looking into what the added cost of adding it to my travel insurance would be. If it's not significant I think I'll "suck it up" and save the hassle of owing them anything
          – GroomedGorilla
          yesterday










        • The equipment may be insured, but the policy only covers it in the uk.
          – Andy
          20 hours ago






        • 1




          @Andy It may even go further than that - it may cover the equipment while on a business trip to the US, but this isn't a business trip...
          – Moo
          16 hours ago










        • This answer misses the point that more comprehensive insurance costs the employer more money. They're surely within their rights to say "The laptop is only insured for X, Y and Z: if you want to do A, B or C, you're liable, because we're not paying the extra."
          – David Richerby
          10 hours ago










        • @DavidRicherby I don't think they're within their rights to say that. An employer can't make employees liable for things just by saying they are. However, the employer can say that you may not use company equipment for A, B, or C and, if you do, they can fire you.
          – David Schwartz
          1 hour ago
















        5














        Given that you already work remotely and the equipment is not already insured, you should not be required to insure this equipment just because you are going to a separate remote location.



        If the company would like their equipment insured, they should do it themselves.






        share|improve this answer

















        • 3




          That would be my preferred reasoning, but they're claiming their policy doesn't cover the US. I'm looking into what the added cost of adding it to my travel insurance would be. If it's not significant I think I'll "suck it up" and save the hassle of owing them anything
          – GroomedGorilla
          yesterday










        • The equipment may be insured, but the policy only covers it in the uk.
          – Andy
          20 hours ago






        • 1




          @Andy It may even go further than that - it may cover the equipment while on a business trip to the US, but this isn't a business trip...
          – Moo
          16 hours ago










        • This answer misses the point that more comprehensive insurance costs the employer more money. They're surely within their rights to say "The laptop is only insured for X, Y and Z: if you want to do A, B or C, you're liable, because we're not paying the extra."
          – David Richerby
          10 hours ago










        • @DavidRicherby I don't think they're within their rights to say that. An employer can't make employees liable for things just by saying they are. However, the employer can say that you may not use company equipment for A, B, or C and, if you do, they can fire you.
          – David Schwartz
          1 hour ago














        5












        5








        5






        Given that you already work remotely and the equipment is not already insured, you should not be required to insure this equipment just because you are going to a separate remote location.



        If the company would like their equipment insured, they should do it themselves.






        share|improve this answer












        Given that you already work remotely and the equipment is not already insured, you should not be required to insure this equipment just because you are going to a separate remote location.



        If the company would like their equipment insured, they should do it themselves.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        sf02sf02

        3,8642519




        3,8642519








        • 3




          That would be my preferred reasoning, but they're claiming their policy doesn't cover the US. I'm looking into what the added cost of adding it to my travel insurance would be. If it's not significant I think I'll "suck it up" and save the hassle of owing them anything
          – GroomedGorilla
          yesterday










        • The equipment may be insured, but the policy only covers it in the uk.
          – Andy
          20 hours ago






        • 1




          @Andy It may even go further than that - it may cover the equipment while on a business trip to the US, but this isn't a business trip...
          – Moo
          16 hours ago










        • This answer misses the point that more comprehensive insurance costs the employer more money. They're surely within their rights to say "The laptop is only insured for X, Y and Z: if you want to do A, B or C, you're liable, because we're not paying the extra."
          – David Richerby
          10 hours ago










        • @DavidRicherby I don't think they're within their rights to say that. An employer can't make employees liable for things just by saying they are. However, the employer can say that you may not use company equipment for A, B, or C and, if you do, they can fire you.
          – David Schwartz
          1 hour ago














        • 3




          That would be my preferred reasoning, but they're claiming their policy doesn't cover the US. I'm looking into what the added cost of adding it to my travel insurance would be. If it's not significant I think I'll "suck it up" and save the hassle of owing them anything
          – GroomedGorilla
          yesterday










        • The equipment may be insured, but the policy only covers it in the uk.
          – Andy
          20 hours ago






        • 1




          @Andy It may even go further than that - it may cover the equipment while on a business trip to the US, but this isn't a business trip...
          – Moo
          16 hours ago










        • This answer misses the point that more comprehensive insurance costs the employer more money. They're surely within their rights to say "The laptop is only insured for X, Y and Z: if you want to do A, B or C, you're liable, because we're not paying the extra."
          – David Richerby
          10 hours ago










        • @DavidRicherby I don't think they're within their rights to say that. An employer can't make employees liable for things just by saying they are. However, the employer can say that you may not use company equipment for A, B, or C and, if you do, they can fire you.
          – David Schwartz
          1 hour ago








        3




        3




        That would be my preferred reasoning, but they're claiming their policy doesn't cover the US. I'm looking into what the added cost of adding it to my travel insurance would be. If it's not significant I think I'll "suck it up" and save the hassle of owing them anything
        – GroomedGorilla
        yesterday




        That would be my preferred reasoning, but they're claiming their policy doesn't cover the US. I'm looking into what the added cost of adding it to my travel insurance would be. If it's not significant I think I'll "suck it up" and save the hassle of owing them anything
        – GroomedGorilla
        yesterday












        The equipment may be insured, but the policy only covers it in the uk.
        – Andy
        20 hours ago




        The equipment may be insured, but the policy only covers it in the uk.
        – Andy
        20 hours ago




        1




        1




        @Andy It may even go further than that - it may cover the equipment while on a business trip to the US, but this isn't a business trip...
        – Moo
        16 hours ago




        @Andy It may even go further than that - it may cover the equipment while on a business trip to the US, but this isn't a business trip...
        – Moo
        16 hours ago












        This answer misses the point that more comprehensive insurance costs the employer more money. They're surely within their rights to say "The laptop is only insured for X, Y and Z: if you want to do A, B or C, you're liable, because we're not paying the extra."
        – David Richerby
        10 hours ago




        This answer misses the point that more comprehensive insurance costs the employer more money. They're surely within their rights to say "The laptop is only insured for X, Y and Z: if you want to do A, B or C, you're liable, because we're not paying the extra."
        – David Richerby
        10 hours ago












        @DavidRicherby I don't think they're within their rights to say that. An employer can't make employees liable for things just by saying they are. However, the employer can say that you may not use company equipment for A, B, or C and, if you do, they can fire you.
        – David Schwartz
        1 hour ago




        @DavidRicherby I don't think they're within their rights to say that. An employer can't make employees liable for things just by saying they are. However, the employer can say that you may not use company equipment for A, B, or C and, if you do, they can fire you.
        – David Schwartz
        1 hour ago











        3














        If it's a work trip (i.e. they are sending you) then it's their responsibility, if it's a personal trip it's reasonable to expect the employee to cover it.






        share|improve this answer





















        • While this is 1000% reasonable, the blunt reality is programmers at the moment have all the power. One has to suck up to them all the time, and give them "red smarties," and so on. (Err, that's "red M&Ms" in the US right?) So, it's a tough one.
          – Fattie
          yesterday








        • 1




          If I'm taking a work laptop on a personal trip, it's because I expect to do work on it. It's work-related, so the employer should cover it.
          – Nuclear Wang
          yesterday






        • 3




          @NuclearWang I disagree that it's work related - the OP is obviously trying to avoid using annual leave, so the trip itself obviously isn't work related, and the fact that they will be working on it is their own decision, not that of their employers. OP should pay for the additional insurance required. If it were an employer mandated trip, or if the employer required the op to work, then I would agree with you, but that's not the case.
          – Moo
          16 hours ago
















        3














        If it's a work trip (i.e. they are sending you) then it's their responsibility, if it's a personal trip it's reasonable to expect the employee to cover it.






        share|improve this answer





















        • While this is 1000% reasonable, the blunt reality is programmers at the moment have all the power. One has to suck up to them all the time, and give them "red smarties," and so on. (Err, that's "red M&Ms" in the US right?) So, it's a tough one.
          – Fattie
          yesterday








        • 1




          If I'm taking a work laptop on a personal trip, it's because I expect to do work on it. It's work-related, so the employer should cover it.
          – Nuclear Wang
          yesterday






        • 3




          @NuclearWang I disagree that it's work related - the OP is obviously trying to avoid using annual leave, so the trip itself obviously isn't work related, and the fact that they will be working on it is their own decision, not that of their employers. OP should pay for the additional insurance required. If it were an employer mandated trip, or if the employer required the op to work, then I would agree with you, but that's not the case.
          – Moo
          16 hours ago














        3












        3








        3






        If it's a work trip (i.e. they are sending you) then it's their responsibility, if it's a personal trip it's reasonable to expect the employee to cover it.






        share|improve this answer












        If it's a work trip (i.e. they are sending you) then it's their responsibility, if it's a personal trip it's reasonable to expect the employee to cover it.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered yesterday









        motosubatsumotosubatsu

        43.7k23112174




        43.7k23112174












        • While this is 1000% reasonable, the blunt reality is programmers at the moment have all the power. One has to suck up to them all the time, and give them "red smarties," and so on. (Err, that's "red M&Ms" in the US right?) So, it's a tough one.
          – Fattie
          yesterday








        • 1




          If I'm taking a work laptop on a personal trip, it's because I expect to do work on it. It's work-related, so the employer should cover it.
          – Nuclear Wang
          yesterday






        • 3




          @NuclearWang I disagree that it's work related - the OP is obviously trying to avoid using annual leave, so the trip itself obviously isn't work related, and the fact that they will be working on it is their own decision, not that of their employers. OP should pay for the additional insurance required. If it were an employer mandated trip, or if the employer required the op to work, then I would agree with you, but that's not the case.
          – Moo
          16 hours ago


















        • While this is 1000% reasonable, the blunt reality is programmers at the moment have all the power. One has to suck up to them all the time, and give them "red smarties," and so on. (Err, that's "red M&Ms" in the US right?) So, it's a tough one.
          – Fattie
          yesterday








        • 1




          If I'm taking a work laptop on a personal trip, it's because I expect to do work on it. It's work-related, so the employer should cover it.
          – Nuclear Wang
          yesterday






        • 3




          @NuclearWang I disagree that it's work related - the OP is obviously trying to avoid using annual leave, so the trip itself obviously isn't work related, and the fact that they will be working on it is their own decision, not that of their employers. OP should pay for the additional insurance required. If it were an employer mandated trip, or if the employer required the op to work, then I would agree with you, but that's not the case.
          – Moo
          16 hours ago
















        While this is 1000% reasonable, the blunt reality is programmers at the moment have all the power. One has to suck up to them all the time, and give them "red smarties," and so on. (Err, that's "red M&Ms" in the US right?) So, it's a tough one.
        – Fattie
        yesterday






        While this is 1000% reasonable, the blunt reality is programmers at the moment have all the power. One has to suck up to them all the time, and give them "red smarties," and so on. (Err, that's "red M&Ms" in the US right?) So, it's a tough one.
        – Fattie
        yesterday






        1




        1




        If I'm taking a work laptop on a personal trip, it's because I expect to do work on it. It's work-related, so the employer should cover it.
        – Nuclear Wang
        yesterday




        If I'm taking a work laptop on a personal trip, it's because I expect to do work on it. It's work-related, so the employer should cover it.
        – Nuclear Wang
        yesterday




        3




        3




        @NuclearWang I disagree that it's work related - the OP is obviously trying to avoid using annual leave, so the trip itself obviously isn't work related, and the fact that they will be working on it is their own decision, not that of their employers. OP should pay for the additional insurance required. If it were an employer mandated trip, or if the employer required the op to work, then I would agree with you, but that's not the case.
        – Moo
        16 hours ago




        @NuclearWang I disagree that it's work related - the OP is obviously trying to avoid using annual leave, so the trip itself obviously isn't work related, and the fact that they will be working on it is their own decision, not that of their employers. OP should pay for the additional insurance required. If it were an employer mandated trip, or if the employer required the op to work, then I would agree with you, but that's not the case.
        – Moo
        16 hours ago











        0














        Check with your employer if you can return your current hardware to them and they can purchase and insure a new hardware to the location you are traveling to.



        Regarding retaining your important data, you can perform backup of important things in a physical drive which is easily available and easy to carry while traveling and will be with you in case you need to use that data to setup new system. If they agree, Return the hardware as it is so they can make necessary backup procedures and also allocate it to different person.



        This will bar you from worrying from how to insure your hardware as it will be up-to your employer to decide.






        share|improve this answer


























          0














          Check with your employer if you can return your current hardware to them and they can purchase and insure a new hardware to the location you are traveling to.



          Regarding retaining your important data, you can perform backup of important things in a physical drive which is easily available and easy to carry while traveling and will be with you in case you need to use that data to setup new system. If they agree, Return the hardware as it is so they can make necessary backup procedures and also allocate it to different person.



          This will bar you from worrying from how to insure your hardware as it will be up-to your employer to decide.






          share|improve this answer
























            0












            0








            0






            Check with your employer if you can return your current hardware to them and they can purchase and insure a new hardware to the location you are traveling to.



            Regarding retaining your important data, you can perform backup of important things in a physical drive which is easily available and easy to carry while traveling and will be with you in case you need to use that data to setup new system. If they agree, Return the hardware as it is so they can make necessary backup procedures and also allocate it to different person.



            This will bar you from worrying from how to insure your hardware as it will be up-to your employer to decide.






            share|improve this answer












            Check with your employer if you can return your current hardware to them and they can purchase and insure a new hardware to the location you are traveling to.



            Regarding retaining your important data, you can perform backup of important things in a physical drive which is easily available and easy to carry while traveling and will be with you in case you need to use that data to setup new system. If they agree, Return the hardware as it is so they can make necessary backup procedures and also allocate it to different person.



            This will bar you from worrying from how to insure your hardware as it will be up-to your employer to decide.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 15 hours ago









            nightfury101nightfury101

            1877




            1877























                0














                TL;DR



                Yes, the employer can have good reasons and might request you for such additional insurance. However it's best to check all details first.



                Full answer



                Let me address this question from a perspective of a person with some experience in insurance industry.



                There are two factors to consider. In general you are usually liable for the property of your employer however this is usually limited to some degree. So if you leave your laptop in a car and it gets stolen you may be liable for its loss as this is in general something you should not do. On the other hand if you accidentally drop the laptop at your home it's usually insured and it the insurer takes a liability on this.



                Yet the insurance has its limitations and details depends on the insurer's product and employers choice (and for large companies negotiations). If the company is based in UK and doesn't expect their employees to travel outside the country the company may buy an insurance limited to UK only (that in general will be cheaper). On the other hand they may as well have coverage for trips abroad, albeit it can be limited, e.g. to EU/Europe only or to business trips ordered by the employer only. As you can see both cases wouldn't apply if your laptop gets damaged in the US which essentially means the liability is on you then.



                So yes, the employer might request you to additionally insure the laptop.



                What I would suggest is to ask the employer to check details about the insurance coverage they have. They probably have some specific person responsible for that inside a company and/or a broker who is responsible for handling their insurances. Ask about two things - to check if your specific situation is covered and what should be the conditions of the insurance to match those normally covered cases. If it is covered you're clear and good to go.



                If not, you should ask if it is possible to extend the insurance for the laptop and on what cost (to be covered by you as a reimbursement to your company, you'll probably need sign some extra agreement on it).



                Then go to insurance company/agent and ask if it is possible to include such insurance. It can be already included (unlikely), an additionally paid extension or a separate insurance. If the insurer of your choice doesn't have such option, ask other insurers as well.



                Now you have a clear situation and know the costs. It should be up to you to choose one, however check with your employer if they are happy with your choice of insurer. There may be some crappy companies as well and employer may say they won't accept such insurance.



                Another approach is that you agree to cover the loss if the equipment is lost or damaged and it's not covered by the insurance. You have probably agreed to that already but if not then again - there should be some formal agreement. Now unless the agreement clearly says you are obliged to insure the equipment (two sides can agree on almost anything) it's up to your discretion if you look for some kind of insurance to cover that risk or you just accept the risk on yourself.






                share|improve this answer


























                  0














                  TL;DR



                  Yes, the employer can have good reasons and might request you for such additional insurance. However it's best to check all details first.



                  Full answer



                  Let me address this question from a perspective of a person with some experience in insurance industry.



                  There are two factors to consider. In general you are usually liable for the property of your employer however this is usually limited to some degree. So if you leave your laptop in a car and it gets stolen you may be liable for its loss as this is in general something you should not do. On the other hand if you accidentally drop the laptop at your home it's usually insured and it the insurer takes a liability on this.



                  Yet the insurance has its limitations and details depends on the insurer's product and employers choice (and for large companies negotiations). If the company is based in UK and doesn't expect their employees to travel outside the country the company may buy an insurance limited to UK only (that in general will be cheaper). On the other hand they may as well have coverage for trips abroad, albeit it can be limited, e.g. to EU/Europe only or to business trips ordered by the employer only. As you can see both cases wouldn't apply if your laptop gets damaged in the US which essentially means the liability is on you then.



                  So yes, the employer might request you to additionally insure the laptop.



                  What I would suggest is to ask the employer to check details about the insurance coverage they have. They probably have some specific person responsible for that inside a company and/or a broker who is responsible for handling their insurances. Ask about two things - to check if your specific situation is covered and what should be the conditions of the insurance to match those normally covered cases. If it is covered you're clear and good to go.



                  If not, you should ask if it is possible to extend the insurance for the laptop and on what cost (to be covered by you as a reimbursement to your company, you'll probably need sign some extra agreement on it).



                  Then go to insurance company/agent and ask if it is possible to include such insurance. It can be already included (unlikely), an additionally paid extension or a separate insurance. If the insurer of your choice doesn't have such option, ask other insurers as well.



                  Now you have a clear situation and know the costs. It should be up to you to choose one, however check with your employer if they are happy with your choice of insurer. There may be some crappy companies as well and employer may say they won't accept such insurance.



                  Another approach is that you agree to cover the loss if the equipment is lost or damaged and it's not covered by the insurance. You have probably agreed to that already but if not then again - there should be some formal agreement. Now unless the agreement clearly says you are obliged to insure the equipment (two sides can agree on almost anything) it's up to your discretion if you look for some kind of insurance to cover that risk or you just accept the risk on yourself.






                  share|improve this answer
























                    0












                    0








                    0






                    TL;DR



                    Yes, the employer can have good reasons and might request you for such additional insurance. However it's best to check all details first.



                    Full answer



                    Let me address this question from a perspective of a person with some experience in insurance industry.



                    There are two factors to consider. In general you are usually liable for the property of your employer however this is usually limited to some degree. So if you leave your laptop in a car and it gets stolen you may be liable for its loss as this is in general something you should not do. On the other hand if you accidentally drop the laptop at your home it's usually insured and it the insurer takes a liability on this.



                    Yet the insurance has its limitations and details depends on the insurer's product and employers choice (and for large companies negotiations). If the company is based in UK and doesn't expect their employees to travel outside the country the company may buy an insurance limited to UK only (that in general will be cheaper). On the other hand they may as well have coverage for trips abroad, albeit it can be limited, e.g. to EU/Europe only or to business trips ordered by the employer only. As you can see both cases wouldn't apply if your laptop gets damaged in the US which essentially means the liability is on you then.



                    So yes, the employer might request you to additionally insure the laptop.



                    What I would suggest is to ask the employer to check details about the insurance coverage they have. They probably have some specific person responsible for that inside a company and/or a broker who is responsible for handling their insurances. Ask about two things - to check if your specific situation is covered and what should be the conditions of the insurance to match those normally covered cases. If it is covered you're clear and good to go.



                    If not, you should ask if it is possible to extend the insurance for the laptop and on what cost (to be covered by you as a reimbursement to your company, you'll probably need sign some extra agreement on it).



                    Then go to insurance company/agent and ask if it is possible to include such insurance. It can be already included (unlikely), an additionally paid extension or a separate insurance. If the insurer of your choice doesn't have such option, ask other insurers as well.



                    Now you have a clear situation and know the costs. It should be up to you to choose one, however check with your employer if they are happy with your choice of insurer. There may be some crappy companies as well and employer may say they won't accept such insurance.



                    Another approach is that you agree to cover the loss if the equipment is lost or damaged and it's not covered by the insurance. You have probably agreed to that already but if not then again - there should be some formal agreement. Now unless the agreement clearly says you are obliged to insure the equipment (two sides can agree on almost anything) it's up to your discretion if you look for some kind of insurance to cover that risk or you just accept the risk on yourself.






                    share|improve this answer












                    TL;DR



                    Yes, the employer can have good reasons and might request you for such additional insurance. However it's best to check all details first.



                    Full answer



                    Let me address this question from a perspective of a person with some experience in insurance industry.



                    There are two factors to consider. In general you are usually liable for the property of your employer however this is usually limited to some degree. So if you leave your laptop in a car and it gets stolen you may be liable for its loss as this is in general something you should not do. On the other hand if you accidentally drop the laptop at your home it's usually insured and it the insurer takes a liability on this.



                    Yet the insurance has its limitations and details depends on the insurer's product and employers choice (and for large companies negotiations). If the company is based in UK and doesn't expect their employees to travel outside the country the company may buy an insurance limited to UK only (that in general will be cheaper). On the other hand they may as well have coverage for trips abroad, albeit it can be limited, e.g. to EU/Europe only or to business trips ordered by the employer only. As you can see both cases wouldn't apply if your laptop gets damaged in the US which essentially means the liability is on you then.



                    So yes, the employer might request you to additionally insure the laptop.



                    What I would suggest is to ask the employer to check details about the insurance coverage they have. They probably have some specific person responsible for that inside a company and/or a broker who is responsible for handling their insurances. Ask about two things - to check if your specific situation is covered and what should be the conditions of the insurance to match those normally covered cases. If it is covered you're clear and good to go.



                    If not, you should ask if it is possible to extend the insurance for the laptop and on what cost (to be covered by you as a reimbursement to your company, you'll probably need sign some extra agreement on it).



                    Then go to insurance company/agent and ask if it is possible to include such insurance. It can be already included (unlikely), an additionally paid extension or a separate insurance. If the insurer of your choice doesn't have such option, ask other insurers as well.



                    Now you have a clear situation and know the costs. It should be up to you to choose one, however check with your employer if they are happy with your choice of insurer. There may be some crappy companies as well and employer may say they won't accept such insurance.



                    Another approach is that you agree to cover the loss if the equipment is lost or damaged and it's not covered by the insurance. You have probably agreed to that already but if not then again - there should be some formal agreement. Now unless the agreement clearly says you are obliged to insure the equipment (two sides can agree on almost anything) it's up to your discretion if you look for some kind of insurance to cover that risk or you just accept the risk on yourself.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 11 hours ago









                    IsterIster

                    76819




                    76819























                        0














                        First, understand that you are asking your employer for an accommodation. You wish to travel to the US and you wish to be able to work while you're traveling.



                        You won't be able to get insurance. You do not own the property and you, as an employee, are not liable to your employer for theft of the employer's property. So you don't have an insurable interest.



                        There are really only a few options:




                        1. You could decide not to take the trip.

                        2. You could agree to cover any losses to your employer's property during the trip.

                        3. You could get your employer to purchase insurance that covers their property in the US at their own expense.

                        4. You could get your employer to purchase insurance that covers their property at your own expense.

                        5. You could get your employer to agree to take the risk that the property is stolen and they have to replace it.


                        What option you take is open to negotiation between you and your employer.



                        Normally, I would say that your employer should just accept this risk as a cost of doing business. But here, they are offering you a generous accommodation, allowing you to work while you travel so that you don't lose pay. I can tell you from experience that remote employees generally get less work done while they're traveling because they spend more time sightseeing and so on so having an employee traveling for months might be something they're accepting only grudgingly. Keep this in mind as you negotiate. It may help to reassure them that you will be responsive to work needs.






                        share|improve this answer


























                          0














                          First, understand that you are asking your employer for an accommodation. You wish to travel to the US and you wish to be able to work while you're traveling.



                          You won't be able to get insurance. You do not own the property and you, as an employee, are not liable to your employer for theft of the employer's property. So you don't have an insurable interest.



                          There are really only a few options:




                          1. You could decide not to take the trip.

                          2. You could agree to cover any losses to your employer's property during the trip.

                          3. You could get your employer to purchase insurance that covers their property in the US at their own expense.

                          4. You could get your employer to purchase insurance that covers their property at your own expense.

                          5. You could get your employer to agree to take the risk that the property is stolen and they have to replace it.


                          What option you take is open to negotiation between you and your employer.



                          Normally, I would say that your employer should just accept this risk as a cost of doing business. But here, they are offering you a generous accommodation, allowing you to work while you travel so that you don't lose pay. I can tell you from experience that remote employees generally get less work done while they're traveling because they spend more time sightseeing and so on so having an employee traveling for months might be something they're accepting only grudgingly. Keep this in mind as you negotiate. It may help to reassure them that you will be responsive to work needs.






                          share|improve this answer
























                            0












                            0








                            0






                            First, understand that you are asking your employer for an accommodation. You wish to travel to the US and you wish to be able to work while you're traveling.



                            You won't be able to get insurance. You do not own the property and you, as an employee, are not liable to your employer for theft of the employer's property. So you don't have an insurable interest.



                            There are really only a few options:




                            1. You could decide not to take the trip.

                            2. You could agree to cover any losses to your employer's property during the trip.

                            3. You could get your employer to purchase insurance that covers their property in the US at their own expense.

                            4. You could get your employer to purchase insurance that covers their property at your own expense.

                            5. You could get your employer to agree to take the risk that the property is stolen and they have to replace it.


                            What option you take is open to negotiation between you and your employer.



                            Normally, I would say that your employer should just accept this risk as a cost of doing business. But here, they are offering you a generous accommodation, allowing you to work while you travel so that you don't lose pay. I can tell you from experience that remote employees generally get less work done while they're traveling because they spend more time sightseeing and so on so having an employee traveling for months might be something they're accepting only grudgingly. Keep this in mind as you negotiate. It may help to reassure them that you will be responsive to work needs.






                            share|improve this answer












                            First, understand that you are asking your employer for an accommodation. You wish to travel to the US and you wish to be able to work while you're traveling.



                            You won't be able to get insurance. You do not own the property and you, as an employee, are not liable to your employer for theft of the employer's property. So you don't have an insurable interest.



                            There are really only a few options:




                            1. You could decide not to take the trip.

                            2. You could agree to cover any losses to your employer's property during the trip.

                            3. You could get your employer to purchase insurance that covers their property in the US at their own expense.

                            4. You could get your employer to purchase insurance that covers their property at your own expense.

                            5. You could get your employer to agree to take the risk that the property is stolen and they have to replace it.


                            What option you take is open to negotiation between you and your employer.



                            Normally, I would say that your employer should just accept this risk as a cost of doing business. But here, they are offering you a generous accommodation, allowing you to work while you travel so that you don't lose pay. I can tell you from experience that remote employees generally get less work done while they're traveling because they spend more time sightseeing and so on so having an employee traveling for months might be something they're accepting only grudgingly. Keep this in mind as you negotiate. It may help to reassure them that you will be responsive to work needs.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 49 mins ago









                            David SchwartzDavid Schwartz

                            3,28011220




                            3,28011220























                                -1














                                The point that everyone seems to strenuously ignore is that you can only insure something that you own. So here any solution must come from the employer's insurance, not the employee. But it's OK, it would probably be cheaper anyway. and it'd only be a fairly routine extension of their existing 'stuff insurance'.



                                === OK, If Moo is in the UK and knows better, that's not a good answer then :-). Thanks for the correction. I still stand by the second part though:



                                I also disagree with the 'programmers are precious, suck it up' philosophy. The OP's employer is already being gracious about letting them roam around all over the world. There's no harm in being gracious back and offering to reimburse them for the extra cost of insurance. Why alienate people gratuitously? The programmers are precious situation could change more rapidly than you can imagine, and this kind of attitude will be remembered if a cull is needed.






                                share|improve this answer



















                                • 2




                                  "you can only insure something that you own". Bill Leeper made the same claim, but clearly you can get car insurance for a rental car from many insurance companies (not just the rental agency) and Jan Fabry found insurance in Belgium for privately rented equipment. So that assumption does not seem to be based in fact. Now whether such an insurance actually exists I have no idea, but evidence suggests that it's certainly possible.
                                  – Voo
                                  23 hours ago






                                • 4




                                  You can trivially insure something you don't own but have responsibility for - I worked for a UK insurance broker web based insurance quote engines, and this is one of the things we sold insurance for.
                                  – Moo
                                  16 hours ago










                                • @Voo You are wrong. Both of your supposed counter-examples are liability insurance. You own your liability. In the case we are talking about here, liability insurance won't work because an employee has no liability for theft of property belonging to their employer except at least in cases of recklessness. (And, Moo, you are not ensuring the thing you don't own, you're ensuring against your own liability, which you do own. It's your liability.)
                                  – David Schwartz
                                  57 mins ago
















                                -1














                                The point that everyone seems to strenuously ignore is that you can only insure something that you own. So here any solution must come from the employer's insurance, not the employee. But it's OK, it would probably be cheaper anyway. and it'd only be a fairly routine extension of their existing 'stuff insurance'.



                                === OK, If Moo is in the UK and knows better, that's not a good answer then :-). Thanks for the correction. I still stand by the second part though:



                                I also disagree with the 'programmers are precious, suck it up' philosophy. The OP's employer is already being gracious about letting them roam around all over the world. There's no harm in being gracious back and offering to reimburse them for the extra cost of insurance. Why alienate people gratuitously? The programmers are precious situation could change more rapidly than you can imagine, and this kind of attitude will be remembered if a cull is needed.






                                share|improve this answer



















                                • 2




                                  "you can only insure something that you own". Bill Leeper made the same claim, but clearly you can get car insurance for a rental car from many insurance companies (not just the rental agency) and Jan Fabry found insurance in Belgium for privately rented equipment. So that assumption does not seem to be based in fact. Now whether such an insurance actually exists I have no idea, but evidence suggests that it's certainly possible.
                                  – Voo
                                  23 hours ago






                                • 4




                                  You can trivially insure something you don't own but have responsibility for - I worked for a UK insurance broker web based insurance quote engines, and this is one of the things we sold insurance for.
                                  – Moo
                                  16 hours ago










                                • @Voo You are wrong. Both of your supposed counter-examples are liability insurance. You own your liability. In the case we are talking about here, liability insurance won't work because an employee has no liability for theft of property belonging to their employer except at least in cases of recklessness. (And, Moo, you are not ensuring the thing you don't own, you're ensuring against your own liability, which you do own. It's your liability.)
                                  – David Schwartz
                                  57 mins ago














                                -1












                                -1








                                -1






                                The point that everyone seems to strenuously ignore is that you can only insure something that you own. So here any solution must come from the employer's insurance, not the employee. But it's OK, it would probably be cheaper anyway. and it'd only be a fairly routine extension of their existing 'stuff insurance'.



                                === OK, If Moo is in the UK and knows better, that's not a good answer then :-). Thanks for the correction. I still stand by the second part though:



                                I also disagree with the 'programmers are precious, suck it up' philosophy. The OP's employer is already being gracious about letting them roam around all over the world. There's no harm in being gracious back and offering to reimburse them for the extra cost of insurance. Why alienate people gratuitously? The programmers are precious situation could change more rapidly than you can imagine, and this kind of attitude will be remembered if a cull is needed.






                                share|improve this answer














                                The point that everyone seems to strenuously ignore is that you can only insure something that you own. So here any solution must come from the employer's insurance, not the employee. But it's OK, it would probably be cheaper anyway. and it'd only be a fairly routine extension of their existing 'stuff insurance'.



                                === OK, If Moo is in the UK and knows better, that's not a good answer then :-). Thanks for the correction. I still stand by the second part though:



                                I also disagree with the 'programmers are precious, suck it up' philosophy. The OP's employer is already being gracious about letting them roam around all over the world. There's no harm in being gracious back and offering to reimburse them for the extra cost of insurance. Why alienate people gratuitously? The programmers are precious situation could change more rapidly than you can imagine, and this kind of attitude will be remembered if a cull is needed.







                                share|improve this answer














                                share|improve this answer



                                share|improve this answer








                                edited 3 hours ago

























                                answered yesterday









                                George MGeorge M

                                29417




                                29417








                                • 2




                                  "you can only insure something that you own". Bill Leeper made the same claim, but clearly you can get car insurance for a rental car from many insurance companies (not just the rental agency) and Jan Fabry found insurance in Belgium for privately rented equipment. So that assumption does not seem to be based in fact. Now whether such an insurance actually exists I have no idea, but evidence suggests that it's certainly possible.
                                  – Voo
                                  23 hours ago






                                • 4




                                  You can trivially insure something you don't own but have responsibility for - I worked for a UK insurance broker web based insurance quote engines, and this is one of the things we sold insurance for.
                                  – Moo
                                  16 hours ago










                                • @Voo You are wrong. Both of your supposed counter-examples are liability insurance. You own your liability. In the case we are talking about here, liability insurance won't work because an employee has no liability for theft of property belonging to their employer except at least in cases of recklessness. (And, Moo, you are not ensuring the thing you don't own, you're ensuring against your own liability, which you do own. It's your liability.)
                                  – David Schwartz
                                  57 mins ago














                                • 2




                                  "you can only insure something that you own". Bill Leeper made the same claim, but clearly you can get car insurance for a rental car from many insurance companies (not just the rental agency) and Jan Fabry found insurance in Belgium for privately rented equipment. So that assumption does not seem to be based in fact. Now whether such an insurance actually exists I have no idea, but evidence suggests that it's certainly possible.
                                  – Voo
                                  23 hours ago






                                • 4




                                  You can trivially insure something you don't own but have responsibility for - I worked for a UK insurance broker web based insurance quote engines, and this is one of the things we sold insurance for.
                                  – Moo
                                  16 hours ago










                                • @Voo You are wrong. Both of your supposed counter-examples are liability insurance. You own your liability. In the case we are talking about here, liability insurance won't work because an employee has no liability for theft of property belonging to their employer except at least in cases of recklessness. (And, Moo, you are not ensuring the thing you don't own, you're ensuring against your own liability, which you do own. It's your liability.)
                                  – David Schwartz
                                  57 mins ago








                                2




                                2




                                "you can only insure something that you own". Bill Leeper made the same claim, but clearly you can get car insurance for a rental car from many insurance companies (not just the rental agency) and Jan Fabry found insurance in Belgium for privately rented equipment. So that assumption does not seem to be based in fact. Now whether such an insurance actually exists I have no idea, but evidence suggests that it's certainly possible.
                                – Voo
                                23 hours ago




                                "you can only insure something that you own". Bill Leeper made the same claim, but clearly you can get car insurance for a rental car from many insurance companies (not just the rental agency) and Jan Fabry found insurance in Belgium for privately rented equipment. So that assumption does not seem to be based in fact. Now whether such an insurance actually exists I have no idea, but evidence suggests that it's certainly possible.
                                – Voo
                                23 hours ago




                                4




                                4




                                You can trivially insure something you don't own but have responsibility for - I worked for a UK insurance broker web based insurance quote engines, and this is one of the things we sold insurance for.
                                – Moo
                                16 hours ago




                                You can trivially insure something you don't own but have responsibility for - I worked for a UK insurance broker web based insurance quote engines, and this is one of the things we sold insurance for.
                                – Moo
                                16 hours ago












                                @Voo You are wrong. Both of your supposed counter-examples are liability insurance. You own your liability. In the case we are talking about here, liability insurance won't work because an employee has no liability for theft of property belonging to their employer except at least in cases of recklessness. (And, Moo, you are not ensuring the thing you don't own, you're ensuring against your own liability, which you do own. It's your liability.)
                                – David Schwartz
                                57 mins ago




                                @Voo You are wrong. Both of your supposed counter-examples are liability insurance. You own your liability. In the case we are talking about here, liability insurance won't work because an employee has no liability for theft of property belonging to their employer except at least in cases of recklessness. (And, Moo, you are not ensuring the thing you don't own, you're ensuring against your own liability, which you do own. It's your liability.)
                                – David Schwartz
                                57 mins ago










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