What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?












1















What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?



Intervals are dissonant/consonant so why wouldn't there be a way to measure the totality (or average?) of modes against the respective scale?



UPDATE: The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.






theory scales modes consonance-and-dissonance







share|improve this question

























  • Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

    – Tim
    5 hours ago











  • This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

    – ggcg
    4 hours ago











  • I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

    – Randy Zeitman
    38 mins ago
















1















What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?



Intervals are dissonant/consonant so why wouldn't there be a way to measure the totality (or average?) of modes against the respective scale?



UPDATE: The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.






theory scales modes consonance-and-dissonance







share|improve this question

























  • Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

    – Tim
    5 hours ago











  • This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

    – ggcg
    4 hours ago











  • I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

    – Randy Zeitman
    38 mins ago














1












1








1








What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?



Intervals are dissonant/consonant so why wouldn't there be a way to measure the totality (or average?) of modes against the respective scale?



UPDATE: The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.






theory scales modes consonance-and-dissonance







share|improve this question
















What is the ordering of modes (Ionian, Dorian, etc.) from least to most dissonant?



Intervals are dissonant/consonant so why wouldn't there be a way to measure the totality (or average?) of modes against the respective scale?



UPDATE: The ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.






theory scales modes consonance-and-dissonance




theory scales modes consonance-and-dissonance






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 39 mins ago







Randy Zeitman

















asked 5 hours ago









Randy ZeitmanRandy Zeitman

352110




352110













  • Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

    – Tim
    5 hours ago











  • This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

    – ggcg
    4 hours ago











  • I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

    – Randy Zeitman
    38 mins ago



















  • Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

    – Tim
    5 hours ago











  • This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

    – ggcg
    4 hours ago











  • I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

    – Randy Zeitman
    38 mins ago

















Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

– Tim
5 hours ago





Since the intervals are all identical, but displaced, what's it about? One can't say that all the intervals of Ionian (major, at the end of the day) are consonant.

– Tim
5 hours ago













This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

– ggcg
4 hours ago





This is an interesting question. I agree with Tim, even Ionian is not altogether consonant, every one of these modes contains b2, 7, b5 intervals. But they do generate different "moods" when notes are played in that order.

– ggcg
4 hours ago













I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

– Randy Zeitman
38 mins ago





I mean the ordering could start with the Ionian which must be the most consonant, least dissonant, because the Ionian mode of a scale is the scale itself.

– Randy Zeitman
38 mins ago










2 Answers
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I have never heard of any such ordering of modes by dissonance.



You need a combination of tones or at least a succession of tone to produce dissonance.



I suppose you could make some comparison of dissonance by comparing scale degrees to the tonic. Noting that the Locrian mode has a diminished fifth for the 5th degree, or the Lydian has an augmented fourth for the 4th degree (and those are both important tonal degrees) does seem to point to some inherent level of dissonance for those modes. But I don't know how exactly you would then quantify and rank all seven modes.



I have see the modes compared and ranked in terms or color or 'darkness' by the successive addition of lowered degrees. That would make Lydian lightest and Locrian darkest.






share|improve this answer































    2














    Intervals can be thought of as either consonant or dissonant, but even those determinations aren't always set in stone. A perfect fourth is sometimes dissonant, but then other times it's consonant. Hindemith tried ranking the intervals from most consonant to least, but countless authors have disagreed with him.



    I say this because any ordering of these modes, just like an ordering of intervals, is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement.



    But one possible way is to look at the total amount of change from the major scale:




    1. Lydian and Mixolydian both have only one difference from Ionian. Lydian has ♯4 compared to Ionian, whereas Mixolydian has ♭7. I'm not sure how you'd determine which is more consonant than the other.

    2. Dorian has two differences from Ionian: ♭3 and ♭7.

    3. Aeolian has four differences: ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

    4. Phrygian has five: ♭2, ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

    5. And Locrian, if you consider it a mode, has six: ♭2, ♭3, ♭5, ♭6, ♭7.






    share|improve this answer


























    • I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

      – Michael Curtis
      4 hours ago











    • I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

      – Michael Curtis
      3 hours ago











    • "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

      – Richard
      3 hours ago













    • But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

      – Michael Curtis
      3 hours ago











    • @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

      – Richard
      3 hours ago











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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
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    2














    I have never heard of any such ordering of modes by dissonance.



    You need a combination of tones or at least a succession of tone to produce dissonance.



    I suppose you could make some comparison of dissonance by comparing scale degrees to the tonic. Noting that the Locrian mode has a diminished fifth for the 5th degree, or the Lydian has an augmented fourth for the 4th degree (and those are both important tonal degrees) does seem to point to some inherent level of dissonance for those modes. But I don't know how exactly you would then quantify and rank all seven modes.



    I have see the modes compared and ranked in terms or color or 'darkness' by the successive addition of lowered degrees. That would make Lydian lightest and Locrian darkest.






    share|improve this answer




























      2














      I have never heard of any such ordering of modes by dissonance.



      You need a combination of tones or at least a succession of tone to produce dissonance.



      I suppose you could make some comparison of dissonance by comparing scale degrees to the tonic. Noting that the Locrian mode has a diminished fifth for the 5th degree, or the Lydian has an augmented fourth for the 4th degree (and those are both important tonal degrees) does seem to point to some inherent level of dissonance for those modes. But I don't know how exactly you would then quantify and rank all seven modes.



      I have see the modes compared and ranked in terms or color or 'darkness' by the successive addition of lowered degrees. That would make Lydian lightest and Locrian darkest.






      share|improve this answer


























        2












        2








        2







        I have never heard of any such ordering of modes by dissonance.



        You need a combination of tones or at least a succession of tone to produce dissonance.



        I suppose you could make some comparison of dissonance by comparing scale degrees to the tonic. Noting that the Locrian mode has a diminished fifth for the 5th degree, or the Lydian has an augmented fourth for the 4th degree (and those are both important tonal degrees) does seem to point to some inherent level of dissonance for those modes. But I don't know how exactly you would then quantify and rank all seven modes.



        I have see the modes compared and ranked in terms or color or 'darkness' by the successive addition of lowered degrees. That would make Lydian lightest and Locrian darkest.






        share|improve this answer













        I have never heard of any such ordering of modes by dissonance.



        You need a combination of tones or at least a succession of tone to produce dissonance.



        I suppose you could make some comparison of dissonance by comparing scale degrees to the tonic. Noting that the Locrian mode has a diminished fifth for the 5th degree, or the Lydian has an augmented fourth for the 4th degree (and those are both important tonal degrees) does seem to point to some inherent level of dissonance for those modes. But I don't know how exactly you would then quantify and rank all seven modes.



        I have see the modes compared and ranked in terms or color or 'darkness' by the successive addition of lowered degrees. That would make Lydian lightest and Locrian darkest.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 5 hours ago









        Michael CurtisMichael Curtis

        6,514528




        6,514528























            2














            Intervals can be thought of as either consonant or dissonant, but even those determinations aren't always set in stone. A perfect fourth is sometimes dissonant, but then other times it's consonant. Hindemith tried ranking the intervals from most consonant to least, but countless authors have disagreed with him.



            I say this because any ordering of these modes, just like an ordering of intervals, is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement.



            But one possible way is to look at the total amount of change from the major scale:




            1. Lydian and Mixolydian both have only one difference from Ionian. Lydian has ♯4 compared to Ionian, whereas Mixolydian has ♭7. I'm not sure how you'd determine which is more consonant than the other.

            2. Dorian has two differences from Ionian: ♭3 and ♭7.

            3. Aeolian has four differences: ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

            4. Phrygian has five: ♭2, ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

            5. And Locrian, if you consider it a mode, has six: ♭2, ♭3, ♭5, ♭6, ♭7.






            share|improve this answer


























            • I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

              – Michael Curtis
              4 hours ago











            • I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

              – Michael Curtis
              3 hours ago











            • "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

              – Richard
              3 hours ago













            • But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

              – Michael Curtis
              3 hours ago











            • @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

              – Richard
              3 hours ago
















            2














            Intervals can be thought of as either consonant or dissonant, but even those determinations aren't always set in stone. A perfect fourth is sometimes dissonant, but then other times it's consonant. Hindemith tried ranking the intervals from most consonant to least, but countless authors have disagreed with him.



            I say this because any ordering of these modes, just like an ordering of intervals, is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement.



            But one possible way is to look at the total amount of change from the major scale:




            1. Lydian and Mixolydian both have only one difference from Ionian. Lydian has ♯4 compared to Ionian, whereas Mixolydian has ♭7. I'm not sure how you'd determine which is more consonant than the other.

            2. Dorian has two differences from Ionian: ♭3 and ♭7.

            3. Aeolian has four differences: ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

            4. Phrygian has five: ♭2, ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

            5. And Locrian, if you consider it a mode, has six: ♭2, ♭3, ♭5, ♭6, ♭7.






            share|improve this answer


























            • I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

              – Michael Curtis
              4 hours ago











            • I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

              – Michael Curtis
              3 hours ago











            • "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

              – Richard
              3 hours ago













            • But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

              – Michael Curtis
              3 hours ago











            • @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

              – Richard
              3 hours ago














            2












            2








            2







            Intervals can be thought of as either consonant or dissonant, but even those determinations aren't always set in stone. A perfect fourth is sometimes dissonant, but then other times it's consonant. Hindemith tried ranking the intervals from most consonant to least, but countless authors have disagreed with him.



            I say this because any ordering of these modes, just like an ordering of intervals, is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement.



            But one possible way is to look at the total amount of change from the major scale:




            1. Lydian and Mixolydian both have only one difference from Ionian. Lydian has ♯4 compared to Ionian, whereas Mixolydian has ♭7. I'm not sure how you'd determine which is more consonant than the other.

            2. Dorian has two differences from Ionian: ♭3 and ♭7.

            3. Aeolian has four differences: ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

            4. Phrygian has five: ♭2, ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

            5. And Locrian, if you consider it a mode, has six: ♭2, ♭3, ♭5, ♭6, ♭7.






            share|improve this answer















            Intervals can be thought of as either consonant or dissonant, but even those determinations aren't always set in stone. A perfect fourth is sometimes dissonant, but then other times it's consonant. Hindemith tried ranking the intervals from most consonant to least, but countless authors have disagreed with him.



            I say this because any ordering of these modes, just like an ordering of intervals, is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement.



            But one possible way is to look at the total amount of change from the major scale:




            1. Lydian and Mixolydian both have only one difference from Ionian. Lydian has ♯4 compared to Ionian, whereas Mixolydian has ♭7. I'm not sure how you'd determine which is more consonant than the other.

            2. Dorian has two differences from Ionian: ♭3 and ♭7.

            3. Aeolian has four differences: ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

            4. Phrygian has five: ♭2, ♭3, ♭6, and ♭7.

            5. And Locrian, if you consider it a mode, has six: ♭2, ♭3, ♭5, ♭6, ♭7.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 4 hours ago

























            answered 4 hours ago









            RichardRichard

            39.8k689172




            39.8k689172













            • I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

              – Michael Curtis
              4 hours ago











            • I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

              – Michael Curtis
              3 hours ago











            • "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

              – Richard
              3 hours ago













            • But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

              – Michael Curtis
              3 hours ago











            • @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

              – Richard
              3 hours ago



















            • I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

              – Michael Curtis
              4 hours ago











            • I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

              – Michael Curtis
              3 hours ago











            • "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

              – Richard
              3 hours ago













            • But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

              – Michael Curtis
              3 hours ago











            • @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

              – Richard
              3 hours ago

















            I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

            – Michael Curtis
            4 hours ago





            I was thinking something along these lines, but then saw a funny result comparing Major to Mixolydian: the difference being a M7 in major and a less dissonant m7 in Mixolydian. Wouldn't a m7 be considered less dissonant than a M7, and so Mixolydian less dissonant than major?

            – Michael Curtis
            4 hours ago













            I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

            – Michael Curtis
            3 hours ago





            I didn't realize that about the A4 v. m7/M7. That's interesting. I don't really buy into everything explained by the harmonic series. After the 'chord of nature' I figure a whole lot is up in the air!

            – Michael Curtis
            3 hours ago













            "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

            – Richard
            3 hours ago







            "any ordering of these modes...is bound to be imperfect and subject to some disagreement." I rest my case! :-) But yes, I could see how one would make that claim; the m7 is the first version of 7th that appears in the harmonic series. (I made a silly error in my prior comment, so I've now removed that.)

            – Richard
            3 hours ago















            But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

            – Michael Curtis
            3 hours ago





            But, am I understanding correctly? 11th harmonic is A4, then 14th m7, then 15th M7?

            – Michael Curtis
            3 hours ago













            @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

            – Richard
            3 hours ago





            @MichaelCurtis Conveniently, ♭7 is the seventh harmonic and ♯11 is the 11th.

            – Richard
            3 hours ago


















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            Touch on Surface Book

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            0 How can I make touch work on my Surface Book? About my Surface Book: Model: Intel Core i7-6600 U @ 2.60 GHz with 8 GB Ram and Nvidia GPU OS: Ubuntu 17.04 Latest, kernel 4.10.0-13-generic System outputs on Ubuntu: ~$ xinput list ⎡ Virtual core pointer id=2 [master pointer (3)] ⎜ ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer id=4 [slave pointer (2)] ⎜ ↳ USB OPTICAL MOUSE id=8 [slave pointer (2)] ⎜ ↳ Microsoft Surface Keyboard Consumer Control id=10 [slave pointer (2)] ⎜ ↳ Microsoft Surface Keyboard Touchpad id=11 [slave pointer (2)] ⎣ Virtual core keyboard id=3 [master keyboard (2)] ↳ Virtual core XTEST keyboard id=5 [slave keyboard (3)]
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