How can we prove that any integral in the set of non-elementary integrals cannot be expressed in the form of...
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We know that the derivative of some non-elementary functions can be expressed in elementary functions. For example $ frac{d}{dx} Si(x)= frac{sin(x)}{x} $
So similarly are there any non-elementary functions whose integrals can be expressed in elementary functions?
If not then how can we prove that any integral in the set of non-elementary integrals cannot be expressed in the form of elementary functions?
calculus integration proof-theory
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We know that the derivative of some non-elementary functions can be expressed in elementary functions. For example $ frac{d}{dx} Si(x)= frac{sin(x)}{x} $
So similarly are there any non-elementary functions whose integrals can be expressed in elementary functions?
If not then how can we prove that any integral in the set of non-elementary integrals cannot be expressed in the form of elementary functions?
calculus integration proof-theory
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2
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Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
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– Charlie Frohman
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
We know that the derivative of some non-elementary functions can be expressed in elementary functions. For example $ frac{d}{dx} Si(x)= frac{sin(x)}{x} $
So similarly are there any non-elementary functions whose integrals can be expressed in elementary functions?
If not then how can we prove that any integral in the set of non-elementary integrals cannot be expressed in the form of elementary functions?
calculus integration proof-theory
$endgroup$
We know that the derivative of some non-elementary functions can be expressed in elementary functions. For example $ frac{d}{dx} Si(x)= frac{sin(x)}{x} $
So similarly are there any non-elementary functions whose integrals can be expressed in elementary functions?
If not then how can we prove that any integral in the set of non-elementary integrals cannot be expressed in the form of elementary functions?
calculus integration proof-theory
calculus integration proof-theory
edited 8 hours ago
Bernard
123k741117
123k741117
asked 8 hours ago
Rithik KapoorRithik Kapoor
30210
30210
2
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Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
$endgroup$
– Charlie Frohman
8 hours ago
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
$endgroup$
– Charlie Frohman
8 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
$endgroup$
– Charlie Frohman
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
$endgroup$
– Charlie Frohman
8 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
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The derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function: the standard Calculus 1 differentiation methods can be used to find this derivative. So an antiderivative of a non-elementary function can't be elementary.
EDIT: More formally, by definition an elementary function is obtained from
complex constants and the variable $x$ by a finite number of steps of the following forms:
- If $f_1$ and $f_2$ are elementary functions, then $f_1 + f_2$, $f_1 f_2$ and (if $f_2 ne 0$) $f_1/f_2$ are elementary.
- If $P$ is a non-constant polynomial whose coefficients are elementary functions, then a function $f$ such that $P(f) = 0$ is an elementary function.
- If $g$ is an elementary function, then a function $f$ such that $f' = g' f$ or $f' = g'/g$ is elementary (this is how $e^g$ and $log g$ are elementary).
To prove that the derivative of an elementary function, you can use induction on the number of these steps. In the induction step, suppose
the result is true for elementary functions obtained in at most $n$ steps.
If $f$ can be obtained in $n+1$ steps, the last being $f = f_1 + f_2$ where $f_1$ and $f_2$ each require at most $n$ steps, then $f' = f_1' + f_2'$ where $f_1'$ and $f_2'$ are elementary, and therefore $f'$ is elementary. Similarly for the other possibilities for the last step.
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Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
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– Rithik Kapoor
8 hours ago
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@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
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– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
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Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
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– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
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@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $frac{x+sqrt{x^2}}{2x}$?
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– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 min ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No, the derivative of an elementary function is elementary; some integrals were defined specifically as the antiderivative of certain functions because that function otherwise would have no closed-form antiderivative.
An anti-derivative of a non-elementary function cannot be an elementary function.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, and I can provide a simple counter-example.
Let $f(x)$ be piece-wise defined such that $f(x) = x^2$ for $x neq 0$ and such that $f(0) = 300$.
This is not an elementary function. However its integral is $F(x) = frac {1}{3}x^3 + c$ which is elementary.
For a slightly more "non-elementary" example just make $f(x) = -500$ whenever $x$ is an integer multiple of $n = 0.0001$. Feel free to keep decreasing $n$ to make the function messier and messier.
However, if you want a continuous non-elementary $f$ then no. If $f$ is continuous then by one of the fundamental theorems of calculus $F'(x) = f(x)$ and the derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function. Furthermore, if you want that $f$ is an integral of some other $h$ then it follows that $f$ is continuous as the integral of any real valued function defined everywhere is a continuous function. So this will only work with discontinuous $f$'s that are not integrals of other functions.
In short the set of derivatives of elementary functions $neq$ the set of anti-integrals of elementary functions.
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Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
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– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
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@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
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– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
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I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
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– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
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@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
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– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
1
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"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
52 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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$begingroup$
The derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function: the standard Calculus 1 differentiation methods can be used to find this derivative. So an antiderivative of a non-elementary function can't be elementary.
EDIT: More formally, by definition an elementary function is obtained from
complex constants and the variable $x$ by a finite number of steps of the following forms:
- If $f_1$ and $f_2$ are elementary functions, then $f_1 + f_2$, $f_1 f_2$ and (if $f_2 ne 0$) $f_1/f_2$ are elementary.
- If $P$ is a non-constant polynomial whose coefficients are elementary functions, then a function $f$ such that $P(f) = 0$ is an elementary function.
- If $g$ is an elementary function, then a function $f$ such that $f' = g' f$ or $f' = g'/g$ is elementary (this is how $e^g$ and $log g$ are elementary).
To prove that the derivative of an elementary function, you can use induction on the number of these steps. In the induction step, suppose
the result is true for elementary functions obtained in at most $n$ steps.
If $f$ can be obtained in $n+1$ steps, the last being $f = f_1 + f_2$ where $f_1$ and $f_2$ each require at most $n$ steps, then $f' = f_1' + f_2'$ where $f_1'$ and $f_2'$ are elementary, and therefore $f'$ is elementary. Similarly for the other possibilities for the last step.
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Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
8 hours ago
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@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
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– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
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Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
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– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
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@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $frac{x+sqrt{x^2}}{2x}$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 min ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function: the standard Calculus 1 differentiation methods can be used to find this derivative. So an antiderivative of a non-elementary function can't be elementary.
EDIT: More formally, by definition an elementary function is obtained from
complex constants and the variable $x$ by a finite number of steps of the following forms:
- If $f_1$ and $f_2$ are elementary functions, then $f_1 + f_2$, $f_1 f_2$ and (if $f_2 ne 0$) $f_1/f_2$ are elementary.
- If $P$ is a non-constant polynomial whose coefficients are elementary functions, then a function $f$ such that $P(f) = 0$ is an elementary function.
- If $g$ is an elementary function, then a function $f$ such that $f' = g' f$ or $f' = g'/g$ is elementary (this is how $e^g$ and $log g$ are elementary).
To prove that the derivative of an elementary function, you can use induction on the number of these steps. In the induction step, suppose
the result is true for elementary functions obtained in at most $n$ steps.
If $f$ can be obtained in $n+1$ steps, the last being $f = f_1 + f_2$ where $f_1$ and $f_2$ each require at most $n$ steps, then $f' = f_1' + f_2'$ where $f_1'$ and $f_2'$ are elementary, and therefore $f'$ is elementary. Similarly for the other possibilities for the last step.
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$begingroup$
Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $frac{x+sqrt{x^2}}{2x}$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 min ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function: the standard Calculus 1 differentiation methods can be used to find this derivative. So an antiderivative of a non-elementary function can't be elementary.
EDIT: More formally, by definition an elementary function is obtained from
complex constants and the variable $x$ by a finite number of steps of the following forms:
- If $f_1$ and $f_2$ are elementary functions, then $f_1 + f_2$, $f_1 f_2$ and (if $f_2 ne 0$) $f_1/f_2$ are elementary.
- If $P$ is a non-constant polynomial whose coefficients are elementary functions, then a function $f$ such that $P(f) = 0$ is an elementary function.
- If $g$ is an elementary function, then a function $f$ such that $f' = g' f$ or $f' = g'/g$ is elementary (this is how $e^g$ and $log g$ are elementary).
To prove that the derivative of an elementary function, you can use induction on the number of these steps. In the induction step, suppose
the result is true for elementary functions obtained in at most $n$ steps.
If $f$ can be obtained in $n+1$ steps, the last being $f = f_1 + f_2$ where $f_1$ and $f_2$ each require at most $n$ steps, then $f' = f_1' + f_2'$ where $f_1'$ and $f_2'$ are elementary, and therefore $f'$ is elementary. Similarly for the other possibilities for the last step.
$endgroup$
The derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function: the standard Calculus 1 differentiation methods can be used to find this derivative. So an antiderivative of a non-elementary function can't be elementary.
EDIT: More formally, by definition an elementary function is obtained from
complex constants and the variable $x$ by a finite number of steps of the following forms:
- If $f_1$ and $f_2$ are elementary functions, then $f_1 + f_2$, $f_1 f_2$ and (if $f_2 ne 0$) $f_1/f_2$ are elementary.
- If $P$ is a non-constant polynomial whose coefficients are elementary functions, then a function $f$ such that $P(f) = 0$ is an elementary function.
- If $g$ is an elementary function, then a function $f$ such that $f' = g' f$ or $f' = g'/g$ is elementary (this is how $e^g$ and $log g$ are elementary).
To prove that the derivative of an elementary function, you can use induction on the number of these steps. In the induction step, suppose
the result is true for elementary functions obtained in at most $n$ steps.
If $f$ can be obtained in $n+1$ steps, the last being $f = f_1 + f_2$ where $f_1$ and $f_2$ each require at most $n$ steps, then $f' = f_1' + f_2'$ where $f_1'$ and $f_2'$ are elementary, and therefore $f'$ is elementary. Similarly for the other possibilities for the last step.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
Robert IsraelRobert Israel
329k23218472
329k23218472
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Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $frac{x+sqrt{x^2}}{2x}$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 min ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $frac{x+sqrt{x^2}}{2x}$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 min ago
$begingroup$
Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Okay then how can we prove the derivative of an elementary function is always an elementary function?
$endgroup$
– Rithik Kapoor
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@RithikKapoor Frankly sir, common sense. Writing an explicit formal proof might be tricky but we already know that any composition of elementary functions can be handled with the chain, product, division, and addition rules. If you're asking how to formalize it, fair enough. However if you are asking "How do I know this is true" then it follows by simple observance.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Query. What if we include the Heaviside step function as an elementary function? Would this have any affect on the answer?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $frac{x+sqrt{x^2}}{2x}$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 min ago
$begingroup$
@TheGreatDuck, before anything else, what would you say about the function $frac{x+sqrt{x^2}}{2x}$?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 min ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No, the derivative of an elementary function is elementary; some integrals were defined specifically as the antiderivative of certain functions because that function otherwise would have no closed-form antiderivative.
An anti-derivative of a non-elementary function cannot be an elementary function.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No, the derivative of an elementary function is elementary; some integrals were defined specifically as the antiderivative of certain functions because that function otherwise would have no closed-form antiderivative.
An anti-derivative of a non-elementary function cannot be an elementary function.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
No, the derivative of an elementary function is elementary; some integrals were defined specifically as the antiderivative of certain functions because that function otherwise would have no closed-form antiderivative.
An anti-derivative of a non-elementary function cannot be an elementary function.
$endgroup$
No, the derivative of an elementary function is elementary; some integrals were defined specifically as the antiderivative of certain functions because that function otherwise would have no closed-form antiderivative.
An anti-derivative of a non-elementary function cannot be an elementary function.
answered 8 hours ago
El EctricEl Ectric
14910
14910
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, and I can provide a simple counter-example.
Let $f(x)$ be piece-wise defined such that $f(x) = x^2$ for $x neq 0$ and such that $f(0) = 300$.
This is not an elementary function. However its integral is $F(x) = frac {1}{3}x^3 + c$ which is elementary.
For a slightly more "non-elementary" example just make $f(x) = -500$ whenever $x$ is an integer multiple of $n = 0.0001$. Feel free to keep decreasing $n$ to make the function messier and messier.
However, if you want a continuous non-elementary $f$ then no. If $f$ is continuous then by one of the fundamental theorems of calculus $F'(x) = f(x)$ and the derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function. Furthermore, if you want that $f$ is an integral of some other $h$ then it follows that $f$ is continuous as the integral of any real valued function defined everywhere is a continuous function. So this will only work with discontinuous $f$'s that are not integrals of other functions.
In short the set of derivatives of elementary functions $neq$ the set of anti-integrals of elementary functions.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
52 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Yes, and I can provide a simple counter-example.
Let $f(x)$ be piece-wise defined such that $f(x) = x^2$ for $x neq 0$ and such that $f(0) = 300$.
This is not an elementary function. However its integral is $F(x) = frac {1}{3}x^3 + c$ which is elementary.
For a slightly more "non-elementary" example just make $f(x) = -500$ whenever $x$ is an integer multiple of $n = 0.0001$. Feel free to keep decreasing $n$ to make the function messier and messier.
However, if you want a continuous non-elementary $f$ then no. If $f$ is continuous then by one of the fundamental theorems of calculus $F'(x) = f(x)$ and the derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function. Furthermore, if you want that $f$ is an integral of some other $h$ then it follows that $f$ is continuous as the integral of any real valued function defined everywhere is a continuous function. So this will only work with discontinuous $f$'s that are not integrals of other functions.
In short the set of derivatives of elementary functions $neq$ the set of anti-integrals of elementary functions.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
52 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Yes, and I can provide a simple counter-example.
Let $f(x)$ be piece-wise defined such that $f(x) = x^2$ for $x neq 0$ and such that $f(0) = 300$.
This is not an elementary function. However its integral is $F(x) = frac {1}{3}x^3 + c$ which is elementary.
For a slightly more "non-elementary" example just make $f(x) = -500$ whenever $x$ is an integer multiple of $n = 0.0001$. Feel free to keep decreasing $n$ to make the function messier and messier.
However, if you want a continuous non-elementary $f$ then no. If $f$ is continuous then by one of the fundamental theorems of calculus $F'(x) = f(x)$ and the derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function. Furthermore, if you want that $f$ is an integral of some other $h$ then it follows that $f$ is continuous as the integral of any real valued function defined everywhere is a continuous function. So this will only work with discontinuous $f$'s that are not integrals of other functions.
In short the set of derivatives of elementary functions $neq$ the set of anti-integrals of elementary functions.
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Yes, and I can provide a simple counter-example.
Let $f(x)$ be piece-wise defined such that $f(x) = x^2$ for $x neq 0$ and such that $f(0) = 300$.
This is not an elementary function. However its integral is $F(x) = frac {1}{3}x^3 + c$ which is elementary.
For a slightly more "non-elementary" example just make $f(x) = -500$ whenever $x$ is an integer multiple of $n = 0.0001$. Feel free to keep decreasing $n$ to make the function messier and messier.
However, if you want a continuous non-elementary $f$ then no. If $f$ is continuous then by one of the fundamental theorems of calculus $F'(x) = f(x)$ and the derivative of an elementary function is an elementary function. Furthermore, if you want that $f$ is an integral of some other $h$ then it follows that $f$ is continuous as the integral of any real valued function defined everywhere is a continuous function. So this will only work with discontinuous $f$'s that are not integrals of other functions.
In short the set of derivatives of elementary functions $neq$ the set of anti-integrals of elementary functions.
answered 2 hours ago
The Great DuckThe Great Duck
24932047
24932047
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Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
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– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
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@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
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– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
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I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
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– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
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@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
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– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
1
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"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
52 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
52 mins ago
$begingroup$
Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Why is a piecewise function with elementary cases not elementary?
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician an infinite number of cases?
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I am talking about your second sentence. You give a quadratic function with a hole and say that it is nonelementary.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@J.M.isnotamathematician As I said, there are much messier example and I gave one. The definition of elementary is tenuous at best. Provide a detailed analytical definition and I'll say whether something fits inside it. Until then, there's no real way to tell for sure. Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept. Regardless, I can easily keep cranking up the complexity on the counter-example so it doesn't change the result if I mis-identify some simpler function as being non-elementary.
$endgroup$
– The Great Duck
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
52 mins ago
$begingroup$
"Elementary has imo always been a subjective concept." - in this regard at least, we are in agreement.
$endgroup$
– J. M. is not a mathematician
52 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
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Differential algebra is a galois like approach to proving such things. pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3d42/…
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– Charlie Frohman
8 hours ago